I have been talking about going back to college and getting some type of degree in computers. I have friends in the field and they are telling me that college is all fine a dandy but where i really need to look is certifications. Is this a true statement? Do i really need to spend the time and money on college or save alot and go with company that can teach me then give me the certs.?
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College vs. Certs. 14
- Thread starter Outlaw420
- Start date
Your comment tells me that YOU don't have much experience with "Corporate" America. You can "do nothing" for only so long then there is nowhere left to "do nothing."
IF companies in general do not produce, then they are not HERE anymore. I say again, PERFORMANCE is the key to having a successful career in IT/programming. When push comes to shove those who produce, and have good interpersonal and communication skills will be the last ones standing.
If YOUR company's IT Manager is unable (or unwilling) to remove employees because of bad performance, then your ENTIRE company will suffer. You need quality people doing quality work.
THAT IS HOW CORPORATE AMERICA WORKS....AND SURVIVES.
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
IF companies in general do not produce, then they are not HERE anymore. I say again, PERFORMANCE is the key to having a successful career in IT/programming. When push comes to shove those who produce, and have good interpersonal and communication skills will be the last ones standing.
If YOUR company's IT Manager is unable (or unwilling) to remove employees because of bad performance, then your ENTIRE company will suffer. You need quality people doing quality work.
THAT IS HOW CORPORATE AMERICA WORKS....AND SURVIVES.
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
I would simply ask that you reply to my latest comment with something substantial. I believe I have painted an accurate picture of the current state of the industry.
How would you reply?
Just look at the downsizing that took place within the last decade and how that effect "rippled" across the IT world.
If you are saying that the "degree" is some kind of assurance in the form of a guarantee of prosperity...I'm simply stating that this is not true. And that the degree will simply get you in the door. What you do at that point is an entirely individual choice.
?
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
How would you reply?
Just look at the downsizing that took place within the last decade and how that effect "rippled" across the IT world.
If you are saying that the "degree" is some kind of assurance in the form of a guarantee of prosperity...I'm simply stating that this is not true. And that the degree will simply get you in the door. What you do at that point is an entirely individual choice.
?
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
You were explicit that I did not have experience with Corporate America, in which I have worked for 3 Fortune companies. And I asked for your experience with Corporate America which you seem to be avoiding.
There are no guarantees in life, however, an educated person is less likely to face economic poverty than an uneducated person.
I will go to an educated lawyer and you can go to your tattoo artist for your legal questions.
I will go to an educated architect for designing a building and you can get your 8-year-old child's drawing as a blueprint.
I will choose an MBA (who has an average of 10 years of work experience) to manage a company and you can choose your self-starter, entrepreneurial 16-year-old lawn boy to manage a company.
In case you are unaware, a decade is 10 years. Your comment would then run from 1995-2005. News to me and everyone else I would assume that IT "downsizing" started in 1995.
There are no guarantees in life, however, an educated person is less likely to face economic poverty than an uneducated person.
I will go to the educated physician and you can to your bartender for your medical problems.
I will go to an educated lawyer and you can go to your tattoo artist for your legal questions.
I will go to an educated architect for designing a building and you can get your 8-year-old child's drawing as a blueprint.
I will choose an MBA (who has an average of 10 years of work experience) to manage a company and you can choose your self-starter, entrepreneurial 16-year-old lawn boy to manage a company.
The best opportunities will exist in the future for educated, skilled, knowledgeable, professional workers with the looming baby-boomer retirements according to the US Government.
Those would comprised college-educated people, not high school dropouts.
Those would comprised college-educated people, not high school dropouts.
I think a lot of this discussion seems to be comparing apples to oranges.
Most professional fields like law, engineering, and medicine, for all practical purposes you *must* have a degree. And, while those fields change somewhat, the base knowledge stays the same, so the earlier post
So in the tech field, a CS degree depreciates monthly, in my opinion, where a law degree may just serve it's owner well for most of his life, even without him ever setting foot in school again. That doesn't necessarily say that that lawyer will be good, but he'll have a better chance getting a job with a law firm on that alone than a programmer will with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else.
--Jim
Most professional fields like law, engineering, and medicine, for all practical purposes you *must* have a degree. And, while those fields change somewhat, the base knowledge stays the same, so the earlier post
...would apply there. But I would *never* hire a programmer who had a degree in computer science he got 20 years ago (his 'permanent certification') if he had no other proof of continuing education or skills--I'd take a guy with certs (though I'm no big fan of them either) over that obsolete CS degree.
So in the tech field, a CS degree depreciates monthly, in my opinion, where a law degree may just serve it's owner well for most of his life, even without him ever setting foot in school again. That doesn't necessarily say that that lawyer will be good, but he'll have a better chance getting a job with a law firm on that alone than a programmer will with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else.
--Jim
Calculus
Linear Algebra
Discrete Structures
Algorithms
Theory of Computation
Numerical Methods
Compiler Design
Programming Languages
Machine Organization
The list above are classes required for an undergraduate CS degree. I am fairly certain Calculus isn't obsolete after 20 years, or the others either.
Linear Algebra
Discrete Structures
Algorithms
Theory of Computation
Numerical Methods
Compiler Design
Programming Languages
Machine Organization
The list above are classes required for an undergraduate CS degree. I am fairly certain Calculus isn't obsolete after 20 years, or the others either.
Khz,
While there are programmers who use calculus in their work, the vast majority of business programmers do *not* use most of those courses you've mentioned on a day-to-day basis. I would not care one way or another if a programmer on my staff had knowledge of calculus.
Even for applications which need some of the advanced math stuff, you hire that specialty--and add that programming knowledge is a plus, not the other way around.
I managed a banking project, and for the critical processes where intricate math/accounting/banking knowledge was needed, we did not look for a programmer who was an accounting genius--we hired a financial/banking wiz as an analyst, who knew a little about programming. We wrote the critical code based on his math and banking knowledge--not the other way around. However the majority of the code required just good programming skills, not math, and I think that you'll find that in the majority of your techincal positions.
Sure, if you're writing, say, a software compression algorithm, then the higher math disciplines are needed, but I havn't seen a want ad for anything like that in...well...ever.
--Jim
While there are programmers who use calculus in their work, the vast majority of business programmers do *not* use most of those courses you've mentioned on a day-to-day basis. I would not care one way or another if a programmer on my staff had knowledge of calculus.
Even for applications which need some of the advanced math stuff, you hire that specialty--and add that programming knowledge is a plus, not the other way around.
I managed a banking project, and for the critical processes where intricate math/accounting/banking knowledge was needed, we did not look for a programmer who was an accounting genius--we hired a financial/banking wiz as an analyst, who knew a little about programming. We wrote the critical code based on his math and banking knowledge--not the other way around. However the majority of the code required just good programming skills, not math, and I think that you'll find that in the majority of your techincal positions.
Sure, if you're writing, say, a software compression algorithm, then the higher math disciplines are needed, but I havn't seen a want ad for anything like that in...well...ever.
--Jim
CajunCenturion
Programmer
==> obsolete CS degree
I guess that means that programming logic is obsolete.
Also obsolete are trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Oh and objects too. Object oriented programming and object oriented languages have been around since the last 1960's. Let's not forget normalization, which must be obsolete as well, since that technology is almost 30 years old, and oh no, it's mathematically based. I guess that since SQL Server and Oracle, just to name two, are completely obsolete since they are built on that 30+ year old technology. I did not realize that recursive descent and/or table driven parsing was obsolete, and I'm must admit, that I'm amazed to discover that semaphores are also obsolete. Does anyone find it strange that so many systems today are using obsolete virtual memory management? Now the Ethernet protocol, that's only between 23 and 28 years old, depending on what you call the first real Ethernet. Oh wait, that's obsolete too, it's still over 20 years old.
You might be surprised to find out how much math set theory is behind, well for starters, normalization. That same set theory (set theory is math by the way) is also behind the current data mining technologies. Not to mention artificial intelligence where information encoding is at the heart of the problem. Although you did mention data compression, let's not mention image compression, like JPEG which uses an inverse hyperbolic transformation as its foundation. Math also comes into play in quite a few engineering based applications. One of the reasons that you don't see advertisements for jobs that require software compression algorithm, which affects data transmission rates and accuracy across networks, is because those employers don't advertise on the streets. They know that's not where the qualified candidates are. Did you know that Hamming codes are still being used today?
jsteph - What are some of the newer IT technologies, i.e. those that are less than 20 years old?
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I guess that means that programming logic is obsolete.
Also obsolete are trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Oh and objects too. Object oriented programming and object oriented languages have been around since the last 1960's. Let's not forget normalization, which must be obsolete as well, since that technology is almost 30 years old, and oh no, it's mathematically based. I guess that since SQL Server and Oracle, just to name two, are completely obsolete since they are built on that 30+ year old technology. I did not realize that recursive descent and/or table driven parsing was obsolete, and I'm must admit, that I'm amazed to discover that semaphores are also obsolete. Does anyone find it strange that so many systems today are using obsolete virtual memory management? Now the Ethernet protocol, that's only between 23 and 28 years old, depending on what you call the first real Ethernet. Oh wait, that's obsolete too, it's still over 20 years old.
You might be surprised to find out how much math set theory is behind, well for starters, normalization. That same set theory (set theory is math by the way) is also behind the current data mining technologies. Not to mention artificial intelligence where information encoding is at the heart of the problem. Although you did mention data compression, let's not mention image compression, like JPEG which uses an inverse hyperbolic transformation as its foundation. Math also comes into play in quite a few engineering based applications. One of the reasons that you don't see advertisements for jobs that require software compression algorithm, which affects data transmission rates and accuracy across networks, is because those employers don't advertise on the streets. They know that's not where the qualified candidates are. Did you know that Hamming codes are still being used today?
jsteph - What are some of the newer IT technologies, i.e. those that are less than 20 years old?
Good Luck
--------------
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Cajun,
In my post, I specifically mentioned the MATH, and said MOST of the courses weren't used on a daily basis.
Did you learn XML 20 years ago? How about .Net? SQL-server may be *based* on 20 year old technology, but it itself is much newer.
I'm not sure if you really got the gist of my post and just wanted to attack, but the gist was that, and I quote:
I stand with my statement--a 20 year old CS degree with no further training is obsolete. So you know trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Big deal. If most business code was written in C then that'd be useful. Did you get that part of my post--*business* code? When was the last time a sql-server, oracle, vb, .net programmer needed to know how code a linked-list? That's low-level code that isn't part of most higher-level languages.
The prgramming arena requires near-constant re-training, and this is NOT part of a 20-year old CS degree.
-Jim
In my post, I specifically mentioned the MATH, and said MOST of the courses weren't used on a daily basis.
Did you learn XML 20 years ago? How about .Net? SQL-server may be *based* on 20 year old technology, but it itself is much newer.
I'm not sure if you really got the gist of my post and just wanted to attack, but the gist was that, and I quote:
I stand with my statement--a 20 year old CS degree with no further training is obsolete. So you know trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Big deal. If most business code was written in C then that'd be useful. Did you get that part of my post--*business* code? When was the last time a sql-server, oracle, vb, .net programmer needed to know how code a linked-list? That's low-level code that isn't part of most higher-level languages.
The prgramming arena requires near-constant re-training, and this is NOT part of a 20-year old CS degree.
-Jim
What a college degree will prep you for is the communications, some of the math, and analytical skills, but the basis of your success is and always has been... your ability to put out quality work, consistently, so as to add to your company, rather than "take away from it."
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
Thanks:
MV
"What would you attempt to do... if you knew ... you could not fail?
...and I must add, Cajun, that your post was really a cheap shot.
I did not at all mean that what is learned in CS courses is useless--and that should have been clear--so for you to go list all those things as if I marginalize them was just cheap.
Again, my gist was that what you learn about many of those things you mentioned just isn't a requirement for day-to-day business coders. If someone comes to me with experience, and shows that they can understand a business application issue and form an intelligent solution for that problem, I don't give a rats behind if he doesn't have a CS degree but Applicant #2 has one from 20 years ago but never did anything since. Applicant#2 can sit and wax philosophical about normalization theory and set design all he wants, while Applicant #1 has the job and is getting our product out the door with efficient code that works in the real world.
--Jim
I did not at all mean that what is learned in CS courses is useless--and that should have been clear--so for you to go list all those things as if I marginalize them was just cheap.
Again, my gist was that what you learn about many of those things you mentioned just isn't a requirement for day-to-day business coders. If someone comes to me with experience, and shows that they can understand a business application issue and form an intelligent solution for that problem, I don't give a rats behind if he doesn't have a CS degree but Applicant #2 has one from 20 years ago but never did anything since. Applicant#2 can sit and wax philosophical about normalization theory and set design all he wants, while Applicant #1 has the job and is getting our product out the door with efficient code that works in the real world.
--Jim
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think you've made my point. Trees, stacks, queues, and the like are all data structures and can be used in any language. That fact that you think they're only used in 'C' indicate sthe deficiency in your understanding of what these are, and how they're used. The fact that you don't use them -- since it seems you don't know what they are or how to use them -- severely impairs your ability to produce efficient code. Further, you probably aren't even aware the deficiency exists. I did get the 'business' code part of your post. The point you're missing is that business code is just as susceptible to inefficieny as any other code, or to put it another way, business code can benefit just as nicely from the proper and judicious use of data structures. But you'd have to know that to be aware of it.
That is the crux of the issue of those who try to assess the value, or lack thereof, of something they don't have. They don't know what they're missing.
What do you think is new with XML technology? or with .Net? The products that use those conventions are new, but the technology is not far from it. In fact, it is the ones who understand the underlying technology that developed these prodcuts. What do you think is 'new' about SQL Server?
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
That is the crux of the issue of those who try to assess the value, or lack thereof, of something they don't have. They don't know what they're missing.
What do you think is new with XML technology? or with .Net? The products that use those conventions are new, but the technology is not far from it. In fact, it is the ones who understand the underlying technology that developed these prodcuts. What do you think is 'new' about SQL Server?
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
As someone who does not have their degree, I'd like to weigh in. Dead in the middle. 
I spent 3 years working on a double major in Mathematics and Physics. The real world stepped in and I have not mangaed to finish my degree (it is not an easy one to finish with night classes). I do a fair amount of programming in several different languages. I understand that my lack of formal programming education leaves holes in my skill set. I think this understanding is the key to what little success I have. I know that since I've never coded my own compiler then I would have a hard time quickly writing a recursive descent parser. I know that if I needed to write one, then I could, but I would not probably be as fast as someone that had already done it for a class. On the flip side, I think that my real world experience makes me a far better candidate than someone fresh out of college for most IT positions. I have seen and dealt with the political infighting that is often a larger part of any IT project than good application design. I have done enough coding that I understand that the best use of your resources is often before coding ever starts in the requirements gathering. I understand that controlling user expectations and minimizing feature creep will go a long way toward making any project a success regadless of the certifications/education of theteam members.
So in short, whether to have a degree, certifications, or none of the above (as is my case) is really something that only one person can answer. Only one person knows your true asperations and what your present situation really is. Only one person knows what opportunities are available to you and what your current skill set is. Giving advice without this information is speculative at best. I understand that it is a difficult position that you are in and that it seems wise (and to a small degree is) to ask the advice of others, but this is not the proper venue in which to seek that advice. Talk to professionals in the field that you are interested in who are employed in your locale. Tell them your life story if you have to so that they understand you. Then they may be able to give advice that may help.
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
I spent 3 years working on a double major in Mathematics and Physics. The real world stepped in and I have not mangaed to finish my degree (it is not an easy one to finish with night classes). I do a fair amount of programming in several different languages. I understand that my lack of formal programming education leaves holes in my skill set. I think this understanding is the key to what little success I have. I know that since I've never coded my own compiler then I would have a hard time quickly writing a recursive descent parser. I know that if I needed to write one, then I could, but I would not probably be as fast as someone that had already done it for a class. On the flip side, I think that my real world experience makes me a far better candidate than someone fresh out of college for most IT positions. I have seen and dealt with the political infighting that is often a larger part of any IT project than good application design. I have done enough coding that I understand that the best use of your resources is often before coding ever starts in the requirements gathering. I understand that controlling user expectations and minimizing feature creep will go a long way toward making any project a success regadless of the certifications/education of theteam members.So in short, whether to have a degree, certifications, or none of the above (as is my case) is really something that only one person can answer. Only one person knows your true asperations and what your present situation really is. Only one person knows what opportunities are available to you and what your current skill set is. Giving advice without this information is speculative at best. I understand that it is a difficult position that you are in and that it seems wise (and to a small degree is) to ask the advice of others, but this is not the proper venue in which to seek that advice. Talk to professionals in the field that you are interested in who are employed in your locale. Tell them your life story if you have to so that they understand you. Then they may be able to give advice that may help.
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
CajunCenturion
Programmer
TomThumbKP - I hope that someday you are able to finish your double major. The fact that you understand that lack of formal training has left holes in your skill set is admirable. However, as suggested by my signature quote, and which has been my experience, the more formal (and informal) education I get, the more the holes I realize.
You may not ever be in a situation where you have to write a compiler, but you may need to verify that a user's input is syntactically valid if it's part of a front end query processor. You might have a business system where user are allowed to enter their own math expressions to apply against their data. The technique of recursive descent can used in both these cases. Perhaps even more important, is that even though never used it, you know that if you find yourself in that situation, you know the tool exists and what it's for.
Education is never obsolete, and what you learn is never useless. Everyone is limited by the tools they have in their toolbox, and education increases your toolbox inventory. The more tools you have, the more creative you can be in applying those tools in real-world business situations.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
You may not ever be in a situation where you have to write a compiler, but you may need to verify that a user's input is syntactically valid if it's part of a front end query processor. You might have a business system where user are allowed to enter their own math expressions to apply against their data. The technique of recursive descent can used in both these cases. Perhaps even more important, is that even though never used it, you know that if you find yourself in that situation, you know the tool exists and what it's for.
Education is never obsolete, and what you learn is never useless. Everyone is limited by the tools they have in their toolbox, and education increases your toolbox inventory. The more tools you have, the more creative you can be in applying those tools in real-world business situations.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Cajun,
First, I don't appreciate the insult:
Again--my point was not that *all* of the basic concepts learned while getting the CS degree are useless--my point, if you can take your blinders off for a moment, is that the degree itself as a point on a resume for a business programmer is not nearly as meaningfull as recent certs or recent technology-specific education.
And most of the common higher-level languages don't use queues, stacks, etc at the application level--sure you can program a high-level queue in VB, but I was referring to the low-level C queue's stacks, etc. I've had extensive training in C and C++, and am familiar with all of those items, and I don't have a CS degree and didn't need one to learn those things. And when I learned C and C++, it was not 20 years ago and I'll argue that when I learned it, I got a more relavent, real-world education on it than what was taught 20 years ago.
--Jim
First, I don't appreciate the insult:
You have no idea of where I stand as a coder, and I'm not going to beat my chest to prove to you that I am a very efficient, skilled coder. You have tunnel vision and a negative attitude to come up with slander like that.
Based on my post and your reaction that the 20-year old degree is still relevant, then by this quote you're saying that a programmer doesn't need to continue his education.
Again--my point was not that *all* of the basic concepts learned while getting the CS degree are useless--my point, if you can take your blinders off for a moment, is that the degree itself as a point on a resume for a business programmer is not nearly as meaningfull as recent certs or recent technology-specific education.
For you to think that of me is an insult and shows you didn't read the post. I used C as an example: << if most business code was written in C...>> since C was a common language for business apps. I'm not going to list all the languages that allow low-level queue coding to make the point. For you to nitpick like this...that's really just more cheap shots.
And most of the common higher-level languages don't use queues, stacks, etc at the application level--sure you can program a high-level queue in VB, but I was referring to the low-level C queue's stacks, etc. I've had extensive training in C and C++, and am familiar with all of those items, and I don't have a CS degree and didn't need one to learn those things. And when I learned C and C++, it was not 20 years ago and I'll argue that when I learned it, I got a more relavent, real-world education on it than what was taught 20 years ago.
--Jim
CajunCenturion
Programmer
There is no insult intended jsteph, and I'm sorry that you took any of my comments as such.
==>Based on my post and your reaction that the 20-year old degree is still relevant, then by this quote you're saying that a programmer doesn't need to continue his education.
I have no said on word about continuing education one way or the other. I issue is with the premise that a twenty year old CS degree is obsolete.
==> So you know trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Big deal. If most business code was written in C then that'd be useful.
==> I used C as an example: << if most business code was written in C...>> since C was a common language for business apps.
Data structures are logical constructs and have no bearing on any specific language. They can be implemented in virtually any language, and in fact, can be embedded directly into your physical database structure, and can drastically improve the performance of the system.
==> Again--my point was not that *all* of the basic concepts learned while getting the CS degree are useless--my point, if you can take your blinders off for a moment, is that the degree itself as a point on a resume for a business programmer is not nearly as meaningfull as recent certs or recent technology-specific education.
I'm not sure they were ever on, but consider the blinders off. What basic concepts of a twenty year old CS degree do you consider obsolete? What basic concepts do you consider not obsolete? Maybe the more appropriate question is what do you consider basic concepts?
==> So in the tech field, a CS degree depreciates monthly, in my opinion, where a law degree may just serve it's owner well for most of his life, ...
What about the degree, and please be specific, depreciates? I would also like to point out that since law is interpretative by nature, and is based on case law and precedent, that decisions made by courts today invalidate the decisions made twenty years ago, or even last year. In other words, what you learned in law school, or in court even, about what a law meant twenty years ago may not be what that law means today. In fact, within the last several weeks, an appeals court reversed itself based on a very recent Supreme Court ruling.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
==>Based on my post and your reaction that the 20-year old degree is still relevant, then by this quote you're saying that a programmer doesn't need to continue his education.
I have no said on word about continuing education one way or the other. I issue is with the premise that a twenty year old CS degree is obsolete.
==> So you know trees, stacks, queues, deques, and linked lists. Big deal. If most business code was written in C then that'd be useful.
==> I used C as an example: << if most business code was written in C...>> since C was a common language for business apps.
Data structures are logical constructs and have no bearing on any specific language. They can be implemented in virtually any language, and in fact, can be embedded directly into your physical database structure, and can drastically improve the performance of the system.
==> Again--my point was not that *all* of the basic concepts learned while getting the CS degree are useless--my point, if you can take your blinders off for a moment, is that the degree itself as a point on a resume for a business programmer is not nearly as meaningfull as recent certs or recent technology-specific education.
I'm not sure they were ever on, but consider the blinders off. What basic concepts of a twenty year old CS degree do you consider obsolete? What basic concepts do you consider not obsolete? Maybe the more appropriate question is what do you consider basic concepts?
==> So in the tech field, a CS degree depreciates monthly, in my opinion, where a law degree may just serve it's owner well for most of his life, ...
What about the degree, and please be specific, depreciates? I would also like to point out that since law is interpretative by nature, and is based on case law and precedent, that decisions made by courts today invalidate the decisions made twenty years ago, or even last year. In other words, what you learned in law school, or in court even, about what a law meant twenty years ago may not be what that law means today. In fact, within the last several weeks, an appeals court reversed itself based on a very recent Supreme Court ruling.
Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
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