CCNA -> Job 15

[CCNA2]

Hi, I currently work with servicing computer hardware and I took the CCNA to have better chances in getting a job in networking. My probem is that I have little to none in practical experience. Would you recommend that I went for more certifications, maybe Microsoft certifications, to give me better chances?

It would be nice to hear from someone who works with networking and hear about what the job requires of you.
Is it enough to have Cisco certifications if one wants to work at a company site and not drive around servicing others. Or does one need more competences like in Microsoft products?

Thanks

Thomas

 

[bierhunter]

Wow, I came back and saw this post has grown tremendously!

Whoheard, you have some very good points; but I think you're missing the point about certs that some of us made.

It sounds to me like the person you hired recently you put in the wrong position. To me, no experience = entry level. Regardless of cert or degree.

I would never hire someone with no experience into a higher position. It would be entry level only. With a cert or degree, they would probably start out with a little higher pay, but not higher responsibility until he/she proves ability. That's why we have managers interview people.

You had someone who ...

"Could not even add a user account in Windows. Could not keep up with the network structure and ip addressing, could not keep up with the common tools like DHCP, DNS, or anything simple. Could not even remember their way around a router; much less determine . "

The fact that they had no experience when you hired them should have alerted you to that. What do you expect from someone with no experience?

A cert and a degree do one thing in my book. They establish a baseline of education. Does that mean the person can do the job? No...of course not. But the person has knowledge to build upon that a non-cert or non-degree person does not have.

When you hire someone you have to first look at the lowest common denominator. In this case....no experience.

After that, you move up to education level. In this case, certifications. Ok...so the person should at least know the basics. That is all that should be expected, since he/she had no experience. Same thing with a degree and no experience. But at least with a cert or degree, you know what the curriculum is that they should be familiar with. Not so with someone who has no experience and no cert or degree.

Sorry, but in the scenario you stated above, I blame the hiring manager. This is an example of hiring the wrong person for the job. That is the manager's responsibility. I've hired people with masters degrees to run cable for $10 an hour and MCSE's who couldn't spell Microsoft to configure PCs for me until they actually learned something. That's all they were good for. A poor hiring is the fault of the manager. It goes with the job and the paycheck. You can't blame that on anything else.

Anyone can claim things on resumes. That's why we have interviews. That is the time the manager gets to really learn about the person. If the manager misjudges the person...well...that's why the manager gets paid more. He/she takes the responsibility.

If you hired someone that didn't work out, you can't blame this forum. That's your responsibility as a manager. Accept it and move on. Sorry to be so harsh, but it's reality.

 

[Whoheard]

Harsh? Come on, this is a forum. If you can't say it hear, where can you say it.?

Poor Hiring? Hey, it was an experiment, and I gave a person a chance. It was not scientific, but the nontheless a chance.

Certifications say you have a certain level of knowledge--even for entry level. It says you know how this and that works within the scope of the product. As an employer I expect a level of performance. If you cannot sit down and simply do the minimum tasks, tasks that a cert says you should know, then you earned the cert prematurely. The person was a rookie and I knew they were a rookie; but they had certs and gave them a shot. They have no hard feelings and neither do I. I think it was an eye opener for him.

If you have a person with a MS pulling cable, and MCES's configuring PC's, I would bet that there is more to the story. Who do you fault for them getting in the door?

Get experience.
Get certifications.
Get a degree.
Just be able to back them up.







I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

Whoheard, now we agree completely:

Get experience.
Get certifications.
Get a degree.
Just be able to back them up.

It doesn't matter what paper a person has if they can't do the job; but you gotta admit in this economy the person with experience and cert(s) and degree(s) is more attractive (at least until they start talking).

Good discussion here, if a bit frank in some aspects.




JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[jdel]

just as a side note, are you sure there are no hard feelings with that 'experiment' (aka PERSON)?

personally, i'd be awful torqued off about that.

 

[setnaffa]

I'm glad I don't work for whoheard... but who can be picky about jobs?

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[Whoheard]

Nope! No harding feelings. I sent them down the street to another company (a friend) where he could get some better ground level experience. Maybe down the road I will use him.

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[thek25]

methinks Whoheard was stirring the pot a little...;-)

thek25
CCNP, CISSP in progress...

 

[YouDontSay]

i had to join this site after reading this thread.
i have my specialized associates degree in networking information technology, a certified ccna(one more test to take before becoming a ccnp), mcse in NT4(will work on 2k3 later), and CLP, oh yeah i dont add this cause its out-dated but also a cne in 4.11, not to mention i have been in the IT field since 97.

i want to become an infrastructure engineer so right after my ccnp i will start to work on my checkpoint expert cert
(want to have some kind of security under my belt).

currently i am working for a very large company as a Lotus Notes admin/developer, but on previous jobs after receiving my mcse my employers let me do some work on servers.

i am a professional when it comes to mailing systems, but i am entry level in cisco. i know some companies are looking for ppl with cisco experience but i am one of those ppl who does not have much of it but have the drive to learn more if given the chance. i am a quick learner, i will stay late/come early on the job so i can study the network infrastructure, i have great ppl skills, and i love to learn about networking.

 

[jtb]

YouDontSay,

What you need to do to get the job you want is offer to cut costs or increase sales by approximately five times the amount of salary and benefits you want.

So, when you tell your (prospective) manager "my previous employers let me do some work on servers", you need to be able to also say something like "and I reduced server support costs by 10%" or "and the increased uptime from my process improvements allowed an increase in sales of 10%". (note: you must be able to back this up with facts that can be checked without going through you.)

Professionals never ask for "a job". They sell their services.

Show them they stand to lose a lot of money without you around. Be realistic, but accurate. It doesn't fail...

For example, if I could make $1,000 extra profit per hour for you (for every hour I worked), would you pay me $200 per hour to do it? Of course you would!!! And you'd be asking me to work overtime!!!

That's what I'm talking about. If certs help you do that, great!! If they don't, don't waste your time and money.

The IT industry is moving towards a service industry. You can be the one at the drive-thru asking customers if they want an apple pie for 50 cents--or you can be the five-star chef who gets invitations for paid guest appearances and does $5 work for $10,000... or more...

Here is a link to the Primer:

http://www.foxandcompany.com/pdfs/Dollarization.pdf

Good hunting!!

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[bierhunter]

If you have a person with a MS pulling cable, and MCES's configuring PC's, I would bet that there is more to the story. Who do you fault for them getting in the door?"

Yes, I had those people in those positions. I don't fault anyone, because I knew their abilities when I hired them. The needed a foot in the door, and that's what they got. They were good people too. They were also hired according to their abilities.

I'm glad to see you worked with your person and help him/her to move on. That's is very admirable. I feel that way with my team. I care about every one of them.

I guess it boils down to this...

Degrees, certs, experience. They are all forms of education. What we do with that education is up to each person. None of those three things can guarantee somebody can do the job.

The hiring manager has to review all of that. Does the degree, cert, or experience fit what is required? It depends. There is nothing certain.

However, when your resume is stacked up against others, anything you have to make yourself stand out can help. And a resume's purpose is to get you an interview....that's all.

I personally look at a resume for about 10 seconds before deciding whether or not to shred it. Your degree, cert, experiences are all factors. Get all that you can.

 

[lamarcus]

Whoheard, if you don't mind me asking, what was the wage for the guy you hired? And what was the title of his position? And how long did you give him to learn the system there at the job?

I think that was a sad situation, I feel sorry for the guy I wish he could have made it. One reason is because it makes me think about how I would do in that situation. I believe I would have done much better, but that could happen to anyone starting out. And it also makes me wonder how much on-the-job training he received. But it really sounds like it was a sink or swim situation, and that seems kind of cold blooded. If I were in his situation I would want at the least a two month window to show my capabilities. Then after that I'd willingly comply with the dismissal and no hard feelings.

 

[lamarcus]

Another thing I'd like to add to this discussion is the difference between being taught Cisco and getting certified, versus studying a book and getting certified.

I was taught Cisco through Cisco academy at a college over 4 quarters, 7 credit hours per quarter. We had actual networks to create, routers/switches to configure in the labs. We had to create start up config's along with access list and make sure they worked. A person studying a book would not do that.

So in the situation with Whoheard and his paper certified guy, I think I'd do better in that situation. Only problem is how do you tell the difference between a guy a like him and a guy like me if we both have the same certification?

 

[Whoheard]

Hey guys, he got a fair deal. Step up and prove yourself and you win the job. LAN Admin I @ >35K. I think that is pretty good for a starter.

Yes it was sink or swim. But when someone throws you a bone, you should really buckle down and prove yourself.

Get your Certs and don't just blow through the exams.




I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

I wouldn't exactly call an "experiment" with a tester that's biased against it working a "fair deal".

But then again what do you care, he was just another "human resource".

 

[Microbyte]

lamarcus,

only way to distinguish between you and just a paper-certified person is through your resume. You can explain and describe briefly about your semi-hands-on learning experience. I hate to say this but, just as paper certified person can fudge his way too.
yeah, i know, it sucks very much so. life ain't fair, but we already know that don't we?
that's why they say "it's not what you know, but who you know"
i too am still looking for a foot in the IT door. it hurts, but no one bothers to take a risk. all i can do is to keep studying, get more certifications, and buy some routers for the homelab to practice. if that don't impress the "big shot" employer, maybe fudging experiences?
i mean, come on, let's be realistic here. they want people with experience but some whom are just starting got none. those who says some started as a PC repair technician then worked his way up. well, i say, take me to your leader, because i'm ready to work.

Microbyte

 

[lamarcus]

I hear ya Microbyte. It's catch 22 situation all the way.
"We need someone with experiance"
"Well how do I get experiance if I don't get the chance to experiance the job?"

 

[Whoheard]

You guys sound a little down on the hiring system. Are you working in the field at this time, or are you just looking for a way to the next level?

Try looking at it from a management perspective. We must sort through many resumes looking for one or two with the right quals. They all have some sort of qualifying factors that must be considered, but only a few that match or come close. Then you sift a little more by asking questions and you can weed out a few more. And then you must ask yourself (before you go spending all that time checking into it) is this person really as qualified as they claims?. It can all lead you right back to the original pile of resumes.

I once interviewed for a position with a large international company. And during the interview, I found out that I was up against my neighbor. He was not even remotely qualified. It certainly explained the questions he was asking me a few days before. I did the honorable thing...I shot holes in his qualifications and got the job. He had no business seeking a position like that; especially with his lack of quals. He would have made the field look really bad. He was really good with DB's not networks.

To you the system has flaws. But to the manager, it is built-in screening that must be used effectively or they will hurt him.

Sometimes the screening weeds out the wrong ones -- Sh*t happens, move on and press harder.

I will agree with lamarcus on this point because it is reality: "it's not what you know, but who you know". If you are not ready to use that then you could be standing there a long time waiting for that opportunity. You think GWB got to the Whithouse on his own?

If you know somebody call them. If you don't know anybody find somebody. Join your local networking groups and associations; they are the best breeding ground for contacts. If you are sharp they will pick up on you; if they have a need.






I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

Q: What does the hiring manager want?
A: To make the right choice.

Q: How do they do that?
A: It depends. However, the ability of the candidate to present themselves as viable (enough knowledge, health, social skills, etc.) cannot be overstated.

Now we, as candidates, must have a "presence". Not as strong, necessarily as the hero in the old Westerns--when we enter a room, we don't actually want the piano player to stop and look--but we must be comfortable with ourselves, our skills, our ability to present them.

And we must make others comfortable with our presence. This often means taking classes on presentation skills or public speaking--like the Dale Carnegie course on procrastination I keep thinking about taking. We must not stutter, wander off-topic, tell jokes, or talk about body functions. We must also groom ourselves well: hair, fingernails, breath, etc. No strong cologne or perfume--many people are allergic! The book "From Serf To Surfer" goes over this very, very well.

It absolutely does not matter if you are the best Router Engineer at your place of employment if you cannot be trusted by your leaders to deliver a presentation to the Decision-makers... The mediocre router guy with the ability to effectively flip through a PowerPoint Presentation in front of the CEO, CFO, or CIO will be promoted more, given choicer assignments, given better raises, and so on...

Certifications are one form of differentiation. They are not the only one you need.

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[rocketlauncher]

Hi everyone,


Very interesting opinions from everyone.

I think, either certified or not certified I just think that you know if someone has the knowledge and expercience they proclaim, when problems arises (when network is down, when server crashes for no particular reason or any other situation) and they know how to fix it or know where to search for answers as quickly as possible.

In my experience, I jumped from software development to networking. My current employer took a risk with me knowinlgly I haven't ever in my life had open a computer or installed an operating system for that matter. When trouble arouse I stepped up to the plate, up to this point I've been right on the money on all issues (thank god! ). I'm know in charged of IT department. For me it was knowing how to troubleshoot and how to research as quickly as posible for unknown issues. But in order to do that you have to know the technology and how it works, you to resolve the issues really quick. So to all you guys that are trying to get into IT keep reading, learn the technology, be good troubleshooters and you need to have good sense of logic.

Also, now we have to study more and more may that be a 4 year college, post-graduate or certifications, we still need to keep our selves up to date with the fast changing technology. I think a lot of people have gotten into the IT field as a result of the dot com era and the great salaries they had back then. But know is a total different story salaries have been lowered, companies are not willing to pay like they did in the past and some people still have that perceptions that IT is a well paid field from the beggining and is not. And just like supply and demand the more we are the harder the competition, by logic the salary goes down adding to that now we have to have some type of certs in order to get at least the interview.

Thanks,

Rocket

 

[TMJ9779]

This was a very interesting forum, I read thru it in its entirety, I was a little bored, but it was very interesting. I am not a manager, I am a CCNA looking to re-up my CCNP. I do not hold a bachelor's degree,but I do have an associate's degree. I will began finishing my undergrad in the fall. I have been the data com field for over six years and I have finally got a position in troubleshooting networks, I must admit, my first four years in data communications were mediocre but they helped a little bit, I was a radio tech in the USAF, was a network installation tech for 2, but the core of that job started out doing cisco and later ended with user migration doing lan work, so I got really rusty with my Cisco, I stumbled through an interview but managed to a land a job troubleshooting different components in the WAN, routers, service eqpt and circuits, and I am so grateful that I was given the opportunity. It makes me work harder, I learn something new everyday and I love it and value it, so to the managers out there looking at people who are not exact fits for position, you really have to know when is the right time to take a chance, I am receiving praise from all of my co-workers and management, no one is born with router configs and troubleshooting manuals embedded in their brain, you have to start somewhere, we all make mistakes, even the most competentent and learned, but if you have potential and hunger you will make it, no one knows it all, I am sure we all seek reference when configuring a new device or troubleshooting a new technology, the most important thing is a sound foundation, the capacity to learn and the knowledge on how to utilize the references around you. I am anti-recert to unless my company is paying for, but I am just a squirrel.

I have to play the game.