CCNA -> Job 15

[CCNA2]

Hi, I currently work with servicing computer hardware and I took the CCNA to have better chances in getting a job in networking. My probem is that I have little to none in practical experience. Would you recommend that I went for more certifications, maybe Microsoft certifications, to give me better chances?

It would be nice to hear from someone who works with networking and hear about what the job requires of you.
Is it enough to have Cisco certifications if one wants to work at a company site and not drive around servicing others. Or does one need more competences like in Microsoft products?

Thanks

Thomas

 

[dogbert2]

It also shows prospective employers that you are willing to put the effort into learning new things. I've earned many certs since Fall of 2000, and a degree. Do I need these things to do my job, No. It just helps in the long term, IMO.

 

[Whoheard]

Opinion Poll:

Have your ever struggled with the idea of re-certifying? Did you really think it is necessary?

Just wondering.


I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

never stuggled with it, and i can definitely see why they are necessary. why?

 

[jtb]

the business case for recertifying at my employer has changed.

in the mid '90s, certs were new and not well-recognized.

in the Y2K years, certs were seen as valuable and certain certs were bonusable. *sigh*

these days, people who don't renew their certs are replaced.

YMMV

JTB
Senior Microsoft Consultant
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K in progress)

 

[Whoheard]

Why? Well, there are several views I have on this.

1. There is no need for it at all; once achieved always achieved.

2. Only if there is a "drastic" change in the technology for the vendor. I've not found a reason for this one yet.

But even with the second one I would hope that a persons experience and a training course would suffice. After all, if the person was not competent, would you keep them around?

Answer these questions:

Do you consider yourself a Professional in your career?

If you consider yourself a Professional, what other careers do you consider Professional?

How do other Professionals demonstrate proficiency?



I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

Whoheard,

University Degrees and Technical Certifications exist for two widely different reasons.

Associate degrees are essentially General Education.

Bachelor Degrees are there to raise someone up from the maze, let them look around, stimulate thinking in ways they might have avoided in the past, and teach them to write coherently. Been there, done that, got the teeshirt... We're way past everything they taught me in '88...

Graduate Degrees are basically "Professional Certifications", a refining of the thought process and an imparting of a bit more than the secret handshake and a signet ring: a sort of Specialization of the Awakened Mind. I don't have time for this one yet...

Trade schools offer the secret handshake to enter a particular trade like welding, real estate sales, or court reporting. Mine was in computer programming.

Technical Certifications are the "easy way" to show off one's experience. Or, conversely, prove one has been exposed to the relevent technology. A



Now back to your post, sort of...

MCSE: The difference between NT4 and W2K/2K3 is drastic. The rational for multiple domains has greatly changed. The services offered by Domain controllers have changed. DNS is "in". WINS is "out". Security is vastly improved but significantly different--and ignorance in this area is definitely not "bliss".

CCNP: Similarly, the differences in Cisco between 1995 and now are equally drastic. If your network folks are worth their salt, they'll be very competent on what you have, less so on newer tech... They may not be able to advise on future stuff due to the lack of "extra bodies" in infrastructure teams.


Computer Infrastructure Architects can be considered professionals. While freer to be certified than the front-line troops, they may have vast amounts of knowledge from studying about and working on a wide variety of hardware, software, and networks. They may also have diminished trouble-shooting ability from not being immersed in the day-to-day, "knee-deep in the dead" world of the sysadmins and netadmins...

Tech certs that don't "wear out" are of limited value. They can be thought of as a way to "get a foot in the door" (Can fix PCs) or a "stake in the ground" (Knows NT4), but precious little else.

Professionals keep current in the things they and their employer value. One way to independently demonstrate proficiency is CEU (PMP, CCIE, CPA, MD, and so on)... Another way is updated Certs. The relative merits have been over-discussed.

YMMV; but every technology seems to have an effectve lifecycle of 4 years. Sure, there are still people who are perfectly happy with their current technology; but it's not fun to load NT on a box not in the HCL, to try to find drivers for newer hardware never intended for NT, etc...

Good hunting!! And sorry I talk so much...

JTB
Senior Microsoft Consultant
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K in progress)

 

[Whoheard]

Man, I am glad I didn't go to your college. I would like to think that any degree, AS or BS, would be little more than just an awakening of the mind. I don't know what college you attended, but mine was a little more than just a slap in the face to wake me up. ;-)

Anyway...

I think you danced around the question. Do "you" classify yourself as a Professional? How do you view all the education and training you have invested in yourself? I personally think my education and training is far more valuable and current.

I think there is a big difference between updating and recertifying. Recertifying says I lost skills and I must learn them again. Updating is the introduction of changes or anything new. Drastic change is only drastic if the person being exposed to the change has never seen anything like it before. MS and Cisco have added a few features or rearranged someone elses ideas/products over the years, but to call it drastically different is being a bit dramatic.

BTW:
You say DNS is in and WINS is out. I would beg to differ. Today, many commercial companies and government agencies are still using WINS and other older technology to keep them going; and they pay really well too. ;-) And yes we try to convience them to update; it is their system.

You say security has changed. I say it has been refined more to correct the earlier flaws.

And, as for Cisco, there is only a difference if you where not paying attention to other vendors technologies.





I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

Cisco has added some things dropped others... IS-IS wasn't available a few years ago... AppleTalk and IPX skills aren't as valuable now as they used to be...

The whole college thing is based on how valuable 4-5 year old technology is... And some of the folks I used to work with would have done better spending the money on certs--at least that way they'd be useful... they can't write and they haven't learned critical thinking...

but I think we're arguing about semantics. "Professional" is a classification like Doctor, Lawyer, CPA, etc... A bit different than strictly "white collar"... And usually in a career with some type of governmental oversight...

I behave "professionally" at work... It's a state of mind, as you are tying in here...

But to "real Professionals", we're technicians...

JTB
Senior Microsoft Consultant
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K in progress)

 

[Whoheard]

Technician? Well you don't give yourself, or this field of work, much credit here. You act professional but are not called a professional. What does that mean? You have good manners. You either are or you are not.

You have invested time and money in educating yourself. You have taken countless exams proving you know your job requirements. Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists and others you label Professional don't even spend that much time certifying/recertifying. They only need to do it once.

I on the other hand would classify myself, and others in the field, as professional. We have our own trade journals and magazines. We can have control over systems that other people deem critical to survival. Give yourself and us more credit.

I think of a professional as a person that can do their skill very well and or doing what others cannot; i.e. football, hockey, baseball, and basketball players; Carpenters; NASCAR Drivers; etc. Heck, Clowns are professional. I even went to a school once that was run by a bunch of clowns. ;-)


Just thought here:
You keep mentioning the people you work with and how bad they are or how superior you are to them, but you don't view the work you do and provide as anything more then technical. Why? Take a look at your own accomplishments.

Question:
I notice you need to put all those certs behind your name. Why?

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

I notice you need to put all those certs behind your name. Why?

Actually, the question is phrased in an uncomplimentary manner; but I won't take offense--you're a Professional!! I tend to agree with you; but the Accountants and Lawyers I work with make easily 3-10 times my salary... It's hard to make the case...

As to your question, I don't need to, I want to. Certs are a game to some, a livelihood to some, a stepping-stone to some, and an impediment to some. In these Tek-Tips certification forums, I like to let people know my recommendations and experience recarding the certs I've obtained--or ask help about the certs I'm attempting.

I like to compare the value of certs as follows:

You tell me your experience is valid so I should believe you. My certifications show a 3rd party believes my experience is valid, it's not just my word...

Q: How can you tell if a salesman is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

20 years of IT might mean 19 years of taking people to the airport and answering the telephone combined with 1 year of IBM mainframe JCL. It might also mean progressively greater knowledge, skill, scope of influence, responsibility, and accountability.

Titles mean nothing. What precisely is a "Systems Engineer" (varies across individual companies)? What exactly does a "Consultant" do? May you believe all "Programmers" are "Application Developers"? A rose (or skunk!) by any other name would smell as sweet, eh wot?

Certs are really nothing unless one is able to get an employer or customer to pay extra because you have them. Similarly, neither Bill Gates nor Michael Dell needed a college degree to become a billionaire. And you can bet those fellows don't have any technical certs either...

If my listing of certs is offensive to you, please accept my apology. I really did not intend to cause any trouble.

JTB
Senior Microsoft Consultant
MCSE-NT4+W2K, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA,
CCDA, CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(CCNP, MCSA/MCSE-2K3 in progress)

 

[thek25]

Professional vs Technician. There will be no true acceptance of anyone within the IT field as being a true professional by society as a whole. Take a look at what society as a whole regards as the most honorable professions. Typically the top five include Military, Doctors, Teachers, and Police Officers. Having spent 12 years wearing the green suit I was considered to belong to a group of soldiers called the "Quiet Professionals". You will not read about us, know our names, or the sacrifices that our families are put through. We simply do the job that 90% of the population does not want to know about, or care to do. Honestly, the ones that are doing the job will probably not( read me ;-) ) understand what it is we are doing anyway and are simply happy to come home, see the family and drink a few beers. The pay sucks, the locations can be ok, and the friends made stay with you a long time. Anyway, this little bit can be said of teachers, police officers, and some doctors. The key difference betwen the the four? Only one of these four can be truly called a professional. This is due to the morays and beliefs of western society. Is this fair, not in my book.

I agree that as IT Professionals to be certified shows to others what you know and independent orgainzations have verified your knowledge. Lawyers, doctors, professors, teachers, and nurses do not have to (re-)certify their knowledge every so many years, only within the technology fields. A friend asked me this question once while I was studing for my CCNP, "You were just hired into government service within the IT field, they cant fire you. Why are you studying so hard, You've got the JOB?" My answer was very simple, "To learn more and expand my limits." (Well on a side note, I've started my trek towards CISSP and my head hurts.) The first part of my sentence, in my mind explains what it takes to be a professional, To Learn More... My employer could care less if I have a professional certification. Hell, half of them would be hard pressed to explain what a CCNP knows and could do. So within the IT field a professional is the individual which brings to the table experience, knowledge, the ability to speake at most levels, and not many can take that away.( there is more to a professional but this is quick) Being percieved as a professional by others is the best compliment that you as an individual can be given. What does that take? The capabiltiy to speak clearly, concisely, and convey your thoughts in such a manner that superiors, whom are not technical, understand you and your positions. Not displaying the stero-typical IT geek anti-social behavior, though fun to do accassional is not a wise maneuver if you ever hope to obtain a long term job. Those days are long gone, the occassional TIE is even seen in the IT cave

As we used to say in the Army, "It is not the green suit, nor the Army which makes the man. It is the man which makes the Army." The individual makes the professional, the certifications that they bring to the table helps bolster the image and will not detract.

My .5 cent

thek25
CCNP, CISSP in progress...

 

[Whoheard]

JTB,

No offense intended by the question; just curious as to why so many people feel it is necessary to paste them on everything from business cards to "I've got my cert jackets and t-shirts." Some people may feel the need to do that because of low self-esteem or lack of respect from others. They may be trying to achieve affirmation from others. Our words and actions show our professionalism, not the certs. Like the answers you give to questions asked in this forum, it is the answers that make it right, not the certs behind the name.

Sure we are not Lawyers, and do not make Lawyer money; but, those days for IT are gone unless we own the company--just like the Lawyer. The money we make is good for most and for some it is great. But, if you want Lawyer money, be a Lawyer and put in the Lawyer time. You would be studying just as hard for the Bar exam as you would for a CISSP.

Like thek25 says: "It is not the green suit, nor the Army which makes the man. It is the man which makes the Army."

I choose to be professional and act professional. And, I would like to be treated as a professional; regardless of society. I expect my employees to be professional as well and to be treated in the same fashion. If you let people treat you any less, then you are the one who will be left feeling worth less.

All this simply means is that you had better know your job, regardless of the trade. No certification is going to working on my systems, professional people will be.

thek25:

Keep studying and learning. You should not accept the society view though. Others in life before us did not accept a society view and they set out to change that. How many views did you change in 11 years with the military?





I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[thek25]

Whoheard,

On views I've changed while in uniform? Only those whose views were willing to be changed. On society views, I rarely if ever accept anything at face value, just call me a suspicious bastard.

Sometimes I think that the certifications that follow a name are an attmept at a form of mysticism. In the form of a pointy hat, with 'Wizzard' written in sequins on it.

I do think that using the certs as part of a signature indicate the level of competence of the individual. The certs may bring initial respect to the person but in the end it is the individual that will dictate whether or not they will be perceived as the professional they hope to be.


thek25
CCNP, CISSP in progress...

 

[wvspecialkvw]

I graduated from Penn State with a degree in Information Technology...I just received my MCSE and CCNA last month...I learned 100x more in those 2 weeks than i did through my four years of college...
(wasnt a bad student either)

Certifications are focused knowledge...

 

[jtb]

*sigh*

For every attribute you "bring to the table", (i.e., tall/short, degreed/not, certified/not, experienced/not, young/old, male/female, hetero/not, veteran/not, and so on ad nauseum), there are some people who will prefer you and some who will not.

Being employable means (among other things) how to read your audience and play to your strengths. I've noticed the majority of comments about "paper certs" come from people who apparently hold none.

That's okay! Each of us makes choices. But blanket statements about this being good or that being bad overlook the deeper meaning: we each of us are responsibly for marketing ourselves to people who want to pay us.

Will a CCNA get you any kind of job? Not by itself--especially if you're ignorant, arrogant, or foul-smelling.

Is it possible that not being certified could cost you a job, allowing a less qualified but better prepared candidate to get your opportunity? Obviously!

Do a search on Google or Yahoo for the "Elevator Speech". How do you prove who you are in 45 seconds to an executive who's looking for a technical professional? That's right, "it depends".

So go do your homework!!

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[littleluker]

Ok Ok I am sorry I was at the early parts of this.

There are strong feelings about this that we all knew before we ever wrote here. I agree with many of you on concept. But its human nature to disagree.... WE all entered this field to learn <hopefully> not just to make money or fill some need to be noticed! lets learn that we all do not agree and just understand that there many sides that will never resolve. Hell, if we all agreed on everything this industry;we would be back where it was in the early 90's not 2004! I suggest we end this with a similiar feeling.

Littleluker (I have certs but what dos it matter,this is
from just ME)

 

[Whoheard]

OK folks. I tried it your way and gave a person a chance to prove themselves. I hired a person with no experience and all the certs--MCSE, CNE, CCNA,... They sounded confident about the doing the work, was very professional in attitude, and showed some ability to learn the systems quickly.

Well, I am here to tell you it did not work. Could not even add a user account in Windows. Could not keep up with the network structure and ip addressing, could not keep up with the common tools like DHCP, DNS, or anything simple. Could not even remember their way around a router; much less determine . All the things required and learned by studying and testing just did not pan out. I had to let him go.

Just so you know, he was well informed that if he did not make the cut he was gone. Sorry guys. You can bring the certs but you need experience as well -- at least in my book.

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jtb]

Whoheard, you're not listening to what we said. And you also didn't pay any attention to the recommendations of the certification vendors...

You didn't try it "our way", you probably hired the guy because he was cheaper. And I'm assuming that your next interview process will include a deeper technical review panel? Perhaps even a series of questions about required functions?

Or you could follow the latest recommendations in CIO magazine and ask them what they'd do if you gave them an elephant...

If you were in the DFW area, I could probably find you 1,000 qualified people today willing to work for a lot less than their last job as long as you provide them enough to pay their mortgage and get health insurance for their family...

Of course, I'm not a manager, so I don't have as much experience hiring people; and I do know some people are excellent con artists. So I'm not trying to say I would have done a better job of hiring.

There are literally thousands of certified people with little paid experience that have "hands-on" experience built in home test labs. Sadly, the fake-cert so-and-so you dealt with has crapped on their parade.

Yes, there are hundreds (or thousands?) of braindumpers out there--and none of them deserve your time; but you better make sure the next one you hire is a "keeper" because your boss doesn't have the money to put a bunch of worthless people into the HR system and then take them out and keep their records around for however many years the IRS and other State and Federal laws require. Not counting the costs of defending the company against those people who will sue you claiming "you fired them for being gay" (or a different ethnic group or disabled or whatever the next class action lawyer will dream up)...


OTOH, the one you fired probably hasn't learned anything either... probably feels like you were in the wrong... in spite of being dishonest...

Better luck next time!!

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
&quot;A knight without armour in a [cyber] land.&quot;

 

[Whoheard]

Enlighten me! What are the certification vendors saying that you think I'm not doing?

I don't think you understand jtb. I gave a person with certifications and little to no experience a chance to prove themselves in an environment which was equal to their level knowledge. They failed and there are no hard feelings. The certs were from reputable training programs and the scores were fair to good. They understood the conditions of employment. The salary was not "cheap"--once they made the cut. Granted I overlooked a few of my normal requirements, but this was an opportunity to prove knowledge and ability. It did not workout this time; and I don't think I am willing to try again so soon. I think my current screening methods are just fine and have served me well.

BTW--

Your house payment is not of my concern when you are applying for a job. If you are looking for a high paying job, don't bother the prospective employer that is paying less -- ask the question up front. Like you said, "your boss doesn't have the money to put a bunch of worthless people into the HR system and then take them out and keep their records around for however many years the IRS and other State and Federal laws require."

Also, for the record, I am the boss. I can afford a little latitude when I want.


bob

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[wvspecialkvw]

Bottom line...Certs alone are not enough (in most cases)

But having an MCSE will get you the interbiew over the next guy with same experience minus the Cert...

Isn't that the only objective anyway..."to get the interview" - Whoheard, sounds like you hired this guy just to prove this post wrong, which is pretty funny...You "know" what you are getting when hiring!