CCNA -> Job 15

[CCNA2]

Hi, I currently work with servicing computer hardware and I took the CCNA to have better chances in getting a job in networking. My probem is that I have little to none in practical experience. Would you recommend that I went for more certifications, maybe Microsoft certifications, to give me better chances?

It would be nice to hear from someone who works with networking and hear about what the job requires of you.
Is it enough to have Cisco certifications if one wants to work at a company site and not drive around servicing others. Or does one need more competences like in Microsoft products?

Thanks

Thomas

 

[littleluker]

whoheard,

Looking for a position in system/network engineering. pref north east but no essential. Any ideas? I have been out off work for a bit due to the nasty sh----- economy. I am contuing on the ccnp trail......

Littleluker.

 

[lui3]

get a job with the state...schools, government, etc

 

[lamarcus]

I am currently in college getting my assoc degree (network engineering), I will be testing for my ccna by the end of next month.

I'm shooting for CCNA, NET +,and A+ after those and graduating I'll be shooting for MCSE. I figure will all those under my belt, I should be marketable, not to mention I'm a PC Tech for Northrop Grumman IT and I work closely with the MAN team here. I don't work with the switches or routers, but every chance I get I go back there and see what their doing trying to get a feel for the position.

Hopefully when I graduate and have my certs, I'll be able to pick up a job making more than the current $14.42 an hour. You guys are giving me some encouragement about going the degree route, because you hear so much bad talk about people only going to get the certs with no schooling to back it up, no kind of class lab work, never even touching a router.

I just wonder how likely a company will be to hire a person like me who has the experiance of the pc tech side trying to cross over into the networking side of the house. Because honestly the networking people here call ME to handle their pc problems, all they know are routers and switches, that's it. I'd hope a company would be interested in hiring me, and giving me the training to build upon my certification, since I'd be well rounded in knowing both fields.

 

[Whoheard]

I have walked that mile in your shoes. You are headed in the right direction. One piece of advice: With NG, they will not give you much without a full 4 year degree. They are one of those old fashion military contractors that loves people with 4 yr degrees. If you don't have one they will not pay much attention to you.

Best of Luck.


bob

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[lamarcus]

Oh trust me Whoheard, I know exactly what your talking about, sad thing about that is, some of (the few)people here who do have 4yr degree's don't know JACK!! And the degree isn't even IT related, but they earn waaay more than me. Some of them have 4yr's and really know their stuff, and I respect them, but the other's...gimmie a break.

Once I do get my 2yr, I don't look to move up in North-Grum IT, I'm going to be looking in Cincinnati or else where for a better paying job. My bosses here say once I finish school and what not, they'll look to move me up, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I may just move up to a different department with same pay just to get that experiance you all are talking about. After that see ya!

 

[jtb]

recertifying reasons:

1. NT4 will eventually go away, and Server 2003 is a horse of a different color... An MCSE in NT4 won't necessarily help you migrate to the newer OS...

2. CCNAs who know all there is to know about AppleTalk and Novell are not really as useful to "Corporate America" as those who are up on Aeronet and Storage Area Networks...

In other words, technology changes. And one person's 20 years of experience might actually be 20 iterations of 1 year of experience... Hmmm... sounds like someone I know... ;-)

JTB
Senior Microsoft Consultant
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K in progress)

 

[Whoheard]

Lamarcus,

I think that NG might come through, but I think they would be more likely to come through if you got a BS. I've seen it many times.

jtb,

Funny, I heard that same agrument from MS people almost tens years ago about Novell going away. ...funny how things never change. You can boast about your new, up-to-date certs, but I will take experience over a new/re cert any day. Too many paper MCSE's and CCNA's



I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[Berzerker]

It seems that IT is the only field where someone can go to school or self-study, take a test to prove a certain level of knowledge and yet gets called a paper cert. Is an inexperienced law school grad a paper lawyer? Is a fresh out of college E.E. a paper engineer?

I don't understand this disdain for inexperienced techs. Nor do I think that HR is going to get a better employee when they hire an in-between-jobs network engineer to do entry level work. I'd rather hire a green tech with a great attitude and a good head for an entry level position than a ccnp that's just going to leave as soon as something better comes along.

Years of experience doesn't always equal a better employee. There are LOTS of people with many years on the job (in all fields) with certs/degrees galore who are absolute infections in the companies they work for. Because of their positions of authority, they are major sources of bad attitude.

I think that WhoHeard's formulaic method of finding prospective employees is pretty silly at best.

 

[jdel]

Couldn't have said it better myself Berzerker.

 

[unkalary]

With those pieces of paper and 50 cents you can get a cheap cup of coffee somewhere

 

[Whoheard]

Berzerker,

If you think for one minute that a MCP or MCSE or CCNA, or CCIE for that matter, is in anyway as good as an E.E. or JD then you are nuts. You are talking apples and oranges. I would hardly want to compare a 4-7 year degree with a one week course offered by a cram session guru as equal. Get down off your high horse and smell the Horse Cr**.

I don't have disdain for inexperienced techs, only the freshly certified tech that thinks he deserves a bunch of money for a few weeks of training.

One of the fastest growing facts of our field is the need for more than just a little MS or Cisco cert. In case you have not noticed, there are more and more people out there learning this job as a second to their primary job.





I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

Whoheard

What do you call a person that got low C's through medical school? Doctor.
What do you call a person that got low C's through E.E. school? Engineer.

Berzerker's point was not to say that someone with 0 experience and gone through 1 week of Cisco training was as good as a 4-7 year student. It was to say that automatically discounting those people is a poor approach. It was also to say nowadays there is more to look at than simply their training. Attitude, work ethic, customer service skills to name a few. The "soft" side.

You take it to the extreme by saying someone that went through "a one week course offered by a cram session guru " instead of looking at all the people that build labs, study long and hard for a certification, and really know their material. Your assumptions are just as extreme as saying all E.E.'s have 0 personal skills and just got through school by copying other people's work. Get it?

You also assume that anyone that gets a certification is automatically going to "think he deserves a bunch of money for a few weeks of training. " Again, how do you know they will not only think that, but also that they only have a few weeks of training? You don't, because you don't even let them in the door. You're missing out on some poor talent that way. If you are worried that you'll get that when you hire, well I'd question your ability to find good talent. There's plenty of it out there.

The only part that I do agree with is that you DO need more than a MS or Cisco cert now. Getting that in combination with a college education is of course preferable. BUT, that does not discount that a LOT of good, hard, talented workers are out there that do not have those credentials. I know a lot of people with "paper degrees", and not a clue how to do real work, after all.

 

[Whoheard]

Well jdel,

Let me put it this way. When you have a Muti-million dollar company depending on your IT staff to keep things running and keep the company making money, you will want experienced talent. When you think about how much money is lost because the company servers or WAN/LAN links are down, then maybe you will appreciate my view. Company Presidents and VP's don't want to hear excuses why it is not working. They only want to know when it will be back up and running. Even a small company of < 100 people can calculate its losses in the 100K/hr range because of a server bring down. Who do you want behind the servers?

Besides, if you read carefully, you will find that I don't discount the inexperienced person. I will only want him at a lower rate ($); and when I can afford the time to invest in him. Also, the inexperienced person is more likely to leave the company once they have gained experience. How much money do you want to spend training him for his next job?

There are many factors involved in hiring someone. If you weigh all of them carefully, you will find that things aren't always what they seem. I don't think you can appreciate my views on this unless you get to the other side.

Having come up through the Certifications game, I know firsthand what it is like. I've had my certs thrown in my face by potential employers only to have my experience keep me in the game. I've had my certs get me an interview when other candidates were getting turned away; but the experience level was the next question. When you see a job advertisement asking for a degree or equivilant experience, you should start thinking twice about applying for that job. I don't think they are going to look at your certs alone.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathize with you. I'm just telling you that today you need to bring it all to the table--BS, Certs, Experience. Don't expect much w/o it.

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

Whoheard, I DO have a multi-million dolloar company dependent on that. I work for and manage a department in one of the major technology providers for banks around the country. I've been in the hiring practice for some time now. you think money is lost by the minute? so much can happen in even 5 minutes through here it'd make most people's heads spin.

Who do I want behind the servers? The exact people I've said. Technicallt competent WITH the right attitude. I also do not even remotely agree with the experience = loyalty comment. From what I've seen the inexperienced people that are properly trained are the most loyal, and the 'experienced guru' is the most willing to jump ship for more money or a nicer office. if you find you're only training people for their next job you may want to have your company review how it treats employees overall.

i also find that the best ceo's and presidents DO care about why its not working. while 'excuses' are not accpeted of course, they DO want to know the challenges to getting something fixed, so they can provide the proper resources to aid in not only fixing the problem, but preventing it in the future.

it sounds to me mor like you're bitter about your own past experience with certs than you are open to new views on people with them now. im sorry for that, but maybe you just had a bad run of it. i would encourage you to not only drop the condescending attitude, its very unbecoming, but also open up to other ideas a bit.

you just might find some really great employees out there.

i did.

 

[Whoheard]

Should we get out and measure our johnsons next? ;-)

Well, it sounds like you know what you are looking for and are comfortable with putting your faith in their hands. Bravo! We could swap stories all day long and never agree about this, but that doesn't make me a bad hiring manager, just someone that has different requirements. Besides, I think we agree more than you think we agree.

You ever get a rookie that looks good on paper, but can't just make the cut?

I know that there are very good people out there trying to break into this work. But, cutting their teeth on my time is not acceptable sometimes. I must weigh very carefully a decision to hire someone with very little experience. If I can fit them in and they work out, great. If not, oh well, hit the road--next!

Bitter? No, not at all. I worked my way up and I feel very good about my accomplishments. If anyone along the line ever thought that I was not good enough, I made it a point to correct the problem. I like to think I am very, very good at what I do and what I have accomplished; as I am sure you are. I would also like to think that you didn't take a couple of exams and wound up in a position of authority. I would hope that you bring more to a table than just a couple of pieces of MS/Cisco paper.

What does bug me though is the cram artists that only want to cram for an exam, get the cert, and then claim he is as qualified but still lacks the experience. I have worked side-by-side with them and will now filter them out.

This website is filled with people looking for answers to exam questions; looking for the shortcut. Do you want to hire one of them?

Don't get me wrong. This is a great site for sharing information and knowledge, and I will continue to contribute in anyway I can. But, I will not kid people about what I would like to see in a qualified applicant. I want to see the one who has put forth a little more effort.

Okay. Your turn.




I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

bah you'd never believe me anyway! heh heh

I agree a lot more with what you've said in this last post, and I hope you can take a look back at some of the others and see a difference in what you put down. Things sounded a bit different before.

We do agree a lot more than it looks (we agree on that even!)

People with certifications and no experience, that took the easy way as you put it, are not the people I would more than likely rely on for my team/company. People looking for a shortcut here will only look for the shortcuts i nthe workplace as well. My point was more to not discount anyone like that, and that there is more to hiring than just experience in my opinion.

So to end, yes, we agree on a lot here. My apologies for some of the more 'harsh' comments I made..I think I was put off by what I felt was a condescending attitude.

no bad feelings

 

[Parcival21]

Well I tried to follow your discussion for a while now. I am what you would call inexperienced. I'm just taking my degree in IT in germany and I have a question. You always talk about people taking the simple way by taking exams. But is this not the point where they show the effort that you miss. I think that it takes effort to take exams while working or studying. I know people who have been working for 15 years and get the possibility to take exams(for example CCNA) but they don't take the chance(god knows why) Others are just starting to work and are hungry and take every chance they get even pay courses and exams themselves only to become more qualified. Not everyone does all this effort only to get more money. Some people only want to have better chance for a job in the branche they have studied for. I think that some of you missed this point.

busche

 

[Cluebird]

Degree plus certs with some experience is the minimum to get you to a job interview (jumping through the HR hoop). Job interview that includes demonstrated ability on actual equipment conducted by the IT/MIS people will get an offer. Whether you want to accept at the offered wages, your choice.

If you can't get through the HR door, you won't be able to demonstrate your experience. If you can't get through the IT test, you won't get an offer. If you don't want to work for what is offered, back to square one.

 

[Whoheard]

jdel,

Hey, no apology needed. I can't and don't take offense with a person's opinion. Besides that is what these forums are all about. The only opinion that matters the most is the one being used to make a decision. I think this posting has probably changed directions a couple of time anyway.

Let's just say experience carries weight on a resume/application and in an interview; Certifications add impact and show a certain level technical understanding; and that a degree is a qualification that can add to a person's paycheck and separate him from the non-degreed person.


Parcival21,

There is nothing wrong with taking the exam for any Certification. It is what you bring with the Certification that counts. Did you put in the time to really understand what it was you studied; not just pass the test by craming.

Many companies, including mine, screen out the weak before we even get to talk with them. If you can't pass a simple IT general knowledge test you won't get an interview.

One point here you might want to consider. If someone has been in a company for 15 years, and has been there through all the changes and growing pains of IT, why would they need to take a certification test? What do they have to prove that they haven't proven over the last 15 years? I would like to think that their experience would count for something, and to not be judged by a young inexperienced newbee with a cert under their belt. Give management a little more credit. Don't discount the older guy because he does not have a cert. In most case you only need the cert to get an interview. It is experience that's going to win over some potential employer.

Think about this when you re-certify. Why are you re-certifying? Did you forget something that you have not been using over the past 3 or 15 years?


bob

Man this is getting long.

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[jdel]

Parcival21, the point that is being made is that there's nothing bad about getting certs. taking tests for certs isnt what's meant by the easy way out. people that take a week long cisco course to cram for an exam or people that only care about whats on the exam and not about what the material REALLY is...thats the easy way out. that's a 'paper cert'.

at my company we ran a study group for people to get their ccna, ccda, or ccnp (separate groups of course). we purposely refused to only go over exactly what was on the exam, but rather went very in-depth into the material to make sure people understood it. anyone can memorize answers.