CCNA & MSCE - Are they worth the effort? 3

[AndrewTait]

I am currently working for a company which is taking a big slice out of the work force, and having only been at the co. for 2 years, I am getting somewhat worried.

Looking at the job adverts in the UK, a lot of them are asking for CCNA or MSCE qualifications, which I have not got. Are they actually worth studying for, or are the companies just asking for them, with a view to limit the number of applications?

 

[needcoffee]

Companies widely use certifications in employment advertising. A minority of companies actually will not consider an applicant that does not have a cert. Make sure your resume shows your achivements and worth. An intelligent IT Mgr or recruiter will take into account industry experience and ask the proper questions during an interview. On the flip side, certs make a candidate much more attractive to an organization because it shows that you took the initiative to complete these programs and have at least theoretical knwoledge of the products you are certified in thus cutting your learning curve, training needs, and, most importantly to an employer, training costs.

My recommendation, by the books for a few current certs and take the tests when you feel ready for them. Jobs are not as abundant as they once were but the IT always has new nieches popping up. Look at how new technologies could be applied to business and ask your friends where their employers are looking at for the future.

I'm starting to ramble....
needcoffee

 

[dvannoy]

Alot of companies state in there job ads the person must have MCSE, MCP etc.. I am going on 12 years in the IT field. I have a couple of certs (A+, Network+, CNA) but thats it. a few years ago I asked the same question as AndrewTait . is it really worth getting all these certs?? I would say NO. the biggest problem I have with Certs is, these companies (Microsoft, Novell etc) keep changing there software versions so much it's hard to keep up with your certs. the bottom line is, a cert or a degree is just a piece of paper. Experience is what counts. I really dont think a piece of paper will help you rebuild a server crash or a major hardware failure without experience. it just looks good on your resume..

 

[CajunCenturion]

I agree to a point, that a cert if a piece of paper, but I do not extent that sentiment to a degree being a piece of paper. A four year degree in Computer Science (or equiv) from an accredited university, is four years of controlled instruction, and exposes you to many aspects of this profession. You also have been exposed to a great deal of the underlying theory, and although it's not given a lot of weight, you have been doing four years of homework and class projects which will not replace real-world experience by any means, is still worth something. Not to mention all of the other qualities that can be granted in your direction for simply having the discipline and work-ethic needed to complete a four-year degree program.

IMHO, that cannot be compared to the piece of paper you get from a two-week cert class.


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dvannoy]

CajunCenturion,
you are correct, I should have said that a little different. there are some companies that will not even talk to you unless you have a degree or allow you to get into a management position as well.

 

[needcoffee]

Despite the widespread disdain for certs found in many IT professionals, they are usually not the ones who decide to drop the hatchet or have the ultimate say in hiring. Some employers are sticklers for demostrating knowledge and education. Others will weigh the completion of certs in hiring or keeping an employee when forced to choose which ones to keep. The easiest way to appease them is to grab a cert or two in your spare time. If you really know your stuff then it should not be hard to get. These pieces of paper can never hurt your career. Obviously certs do not make a good technical person; experience, knowledge and natural affinity make the person.

I waited 5 years before goining after any because I always believed my talents would carry me through then I was unemployed for a year. I went on over 50 interviews and was one of the final candidates for 14 of them. When it came down to the end, I was passed over for lack of a university degree and certifications (I was told outright by all of the directors interviewing me). Spending a little money on a cert while your employed costs a lot less than getting one while you are unemployed.

Damn I hate it when I ramble on...
needcoffee

 

[geah]

I just graduated with a B.S. PC Electronics. Some of my course work included:
CCNA Prep
Visual C++, C++
FPGA's
PLC's
I just completed my A+. I'm taking my CCNA this month. I also have been working as a Field Sevice Tech for 6 yrs now. I have sent out a hundred or more resume's over the course of the last couple of months, for Network Admin to Help Desk Op and have only recieved one face to face interview and 3 phone interviews. My GPA was only 2.35 not anything spectacular so I havent included it on my resume. My salary requirements are 38K. Any suggestions how to better sell myself to a potential employer?



B.S. PC Electronics, A+

 

[AIXSPadmin]

You can actually get a Bachelor of Science in "PC Electronics" from an accredited 4-year college?

And not a tech school that offers BS degrees either, because though they are offered and given they are not equal and that is according to the boards that issue them!

 

[dvannoy]

The bottom line is, experience is what counts..without that all you have is a piece of paper. A piece of paper like I said before cannot help you fix a major network outage without REAL LIFE experience thats a fact! I waited over 9 years before I even thought of getting any certs. and like I said in my above post, I think certs are a way for those manufactures like MS to make money. hear you study like crazy to pass there test's and another version comes out and your cert at some point is no longer valid.

geah, play the game...you have to know how to play the game.

 

[jrbarnett]

I have heard of many people say MCSE is an abbreviation for "Must Consult Somebody with Expertise". It is certainly true in my case having fixed many problems that they haven't been able to (and they related to MS systems, that they were supposed to be an expert in).

John

 

[mozingod]

I've always felt certifications where good for younger people looking to get their foot in the door. IE, if you're stuck in that old catch 22... need experience to get a job, need a job to get experience. I feel certifications are a good way to show you have some experience, hopefully enough to get a job somewhere and start actually getting experience. Just my two cents.

Darrell Mozingo

 

[jrbarnett]

Mozingood

Certifications don't show you have experience; all they show is that you passed an exam. I can name people who have passed MCSE NT4 including Exchange, who have never used Exchange server in their lives.

John

 

[dvannoy]

And we all know there are several ways of doing things..I guarantee you that most of us with REAL experience dont follow the way the test wants you to do things. MCSE etc.. want you to think like the manufactures(no short cuts). which I think is stupid, Especially when you have a CEO down your back pissed because the network is down. what are you going to say "Well that wasn't on the test". I think not.

 

[Zelandakh]

andrew - if you know your stuff, are flexible and can do real world stuff then you should be ok. You need both knowledge and paper to be safe.

Hopefully you are old enough to be seen as reliable (i.e. not a youngster who is afraid of work) and not too old to learn. Keep looking at the market, but prove that you are the one they need to keep til last as you are better than the rest...

 

[AnanthaP]

Sure CCNA, MCSE help the employer. It means if a guy joins with these qualifications, the employers don't have to train the persons from ground up. So time (= money) is saved. So if yoy have them, push this point in the next innaview.

Coming from a Novell and Unix background, I could never understand why these systems need so so many MCSEs. Maybe the OS needs so much handholding. Or do these MCSEs go out and influence purchasing. I somehow doubt it. Also, regarding MCSEs, the subjects are very compartmentalised.

Anyway what does a support guy do? Redo the steps you did, reinstall the software and drivers - if he brought his standard "kit" of CDs - and write out a call sheet. The old days of fiddling interrupts, debug and really providing expert inputs are gone. And this is good. The dumbing down of software installation support (due to better detection and automated processes) should ultimately mean less pain for the end-user. You be the MCSE. So regarding MCSEs, may their tribe decrease.

CCNA I understand is somewhat more general and exhaustive.

Till we get autodetecting path discovery and desktop like router configuration, we will need CCNAs. But not a minute longer.

End

Some points however.
If you have only theoretical knowledge, better join a company where you ae part of a large team and get "really" trained on the job.

Generally, the

 

[mozingod]

jrbarnett: I realise certs don't mean you have hands on experience, but they show you know something. Yes, there's always the exception to that rule with someone purely studying for the exam, but in general it means you know something more than the average person putting in a resume. I obviously know kids shouldn't put in a resume for a head network admin just having an MCSE and no experience, but that should be enough to show they have enough knowledge to at least work a help desk, thereby getting their foot in the door.

Darrell Mozingo

 

[jrbarnett]

Mozingod,

I don't have any trade certifications at all and have never been on any formal training courses, only my Information Systems degree and experience and general computer literacy. I have fixed problems relating to NT networks that MCSE's haven't been able to; I have fixed problems relating to Novell systems that CNE's haven't done.

I have had no formal training in MS Access either - I am completely self taught, learning from my mistakes and optimising code as I find better ways of doing this. This may come as a shock to all those who have given me stars relating to postings in the various forums.
I refer back to my previous post: All those certifications show is that you have passed an exam. Nothing else. It doesn't prove you are competent in use of a particular product, or that that anybody gets better at managing equipment just because they have the certificate and letters after their name. I can name several other people in my situation who feel the same way.

It is not as if there is a legal requirement to get these certifications before managing a network or PC's as there is to obtain a driving license before operating a vehicle alone on public roads, for example, where there is a real risk of accidents caused by inexperienced drivers.

Anybody can screw up a computer, whether competent or not, and while a non functional computer can have serious consequences for an individual or company concerned, there is no risk of people dying or being injured in a computer crash, in terms of desktop and network server operating systems that are being considered here (there may be in fly by wire /autopilot systems on aircraft, but people managing those generally aren't run by MCSE's).

Tell me: If I can get as far as managing NT and Novell networks, database design and programming Access/VBA and Sybase, teaching myself TCP/IP after a DHCP server failed at a former employer. I wrote an e-book on it which has now had over 5000 downloads in just over two years.
You can grab a free copy from my personal website

http://www.jrbarnett.freeserve.co.uk

if you like, and tell me what you think.
What would an MCSE give me other than a hole in the wallet and some letters after my name?

I applied to do an MCP in computer networking which was advertised as being free for the unemployed which I was at the time. The instructor refused to let me enrol when he asked me what computer experience I had and I told him.

John

 

[dvannoy]

jrbarnett,

very nice doc on IP

 

[patrckb]

The original question was "Are certifications worth the cost of obtaining them?"

Each individual has to decide for themselves the value that they would get from the effort it takes to obtain them.

Do you HAVE to have them?

One of my first college classes involved a lab. The professor was asked the first day "do we have to type our lab reports?" Now this was back in the dark ages when typing involved a machine that had a dye-hammer that struck a ribbon impressing ink in the form of a letter on a piece of paper.

The professor said, "well no, technically you don't HAVE to type your lab reports. But let me tell you this, say I'm grading reports and I have two reports, one is typed and one is hand-written. I'm only human, which do you think will get the better grade?"

Jobs are tight now. When I applied for this job with the State of Georgia, there were 190 other applicants for the same job. My boss is only human, what do you think...

Good luck!

Patrick

Patrick Bartkus, CCNP, CNX, SCM Sr. Network Engineer
GA Dept of Labor IT Network Services
If truth were not absolute, how could there be justice?

 

[MDXer]

In My opinion Certs give potetential employeers the warm fuzzy feeling that the person is actually worth interviewing, and the person with the cert a way to get their foot in the door. Because after all they must know something to have passed the tests. Just because you have a cert or have passed a cert test for a technology doesn't mean that the person actively uses the technologies for which they passed the tests for. I admit that I have considered taking some MS Certification tests when I am thinking of looking for a new job, but I have somehow managed to claw my way up the ladder (customer support to OLAP Engineer, BI Consultant) without them. This is not to say that I still won't get them. I think many companies that Look for Certs also fail to take into consideration On The Job Training and Real world experience. As an OLAP engineer I have worked with Data Warehouses in the Terabytes and OLAP Cubes in the 100s of Gigabytes but am I less experienced or knowledgable than someone just out of College with a B.S. or a MCSD, MCSDBA?

Without a degree or a Load of Certs you just have to sell yourself better when interviewing. If you luck out and are in a company already that offers reimbursement for training or school then you would be a fool to pass up the chance at free/ partially free certifications.

Paul