Hiyas. I've been attending a local technical school for the last 4 months. My experience has not been, shall we say, top notch. It seems that the hardware is sub-par, the teaching not too informative and the hands on labs are always fraught with hardware/software problems that ruin any learning experience. The school is a decent one in the area and is quite reputable. My question is, Do you think its worth the 18k for one of these schools? I'm beginning to think I can buy myself another computer or two and order the study materials and do it at home with the same results. I know it all depends on how what enviroment you learn best in, but just as a yes/no question, do you think technical schools are really worth the money?
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Are technical schools really all that? 2
- Thread starter Natecl
- Start date
sab4you
IS-IT--Management
- Jan 30, 2003
- 269
IMO they are a waste of money and dont teach much.
From my experience, I have been sent to a couple of these places by my work. They have been worthless experiences and a waste of time. I no longer will ask my company to send me to these - that shows how little I think about them, if I rather go to work then be paid to sit at these schools for a class.
IMO they teach you something if you know nothing about it. But then, its not enough to be skilled to get a job.
Plus the price is rediculous.
I say, study the certification on your own - have a home lab setup, run virtual machines, etc. This way you can experiment and learn on your own. Purchase the book and read through it. That, IMO, is the best way to learn it.
As for certificate worth on the job market? Unfortunately many times you need a cert just to get past the HR drones who simply scan for MCSA, CCNA, etc. From my work experience, having these certs are meaningless when comparing to skills. In my office there are plenty of MCSE that dont know jack. But, I ended up getting one because I knew I was looking for a new job, and I bet it was helpful to getting me in the door.
Good luck, and I would highly question getting into that much debt for the training they give/.
From my experience, I have been sent to a couple of these places by my work. They have been worthless experiences and a waste of time. I no longer will ask my company to send me to these - that shows how little I think about them, if I rather go to work then be paid to sit at these schools for a class.
IMO they teach you something if you know nothing about it. But then, its not enough to be skilled to get a job.
Plus the price is rediculous.
I say, study the certification on your own - have a home lab setup, run virtual machines, etc. This way you can experiment and learn on your own. Purchase the book and read through it. That, IMO, is the best way to learn it.
As for certificate worth on the job market? Unfortunately many times you need a cert just to get past the HR drones who simply scan for MCSA, CCNA, etc. From my work experience, having these certs are meaningless when comparing to skills. In my office there are plenty of MCSE that dont know jack. But, I ended up getting one because I knew I was looking for a new job, and I bet it was helpful to getting me in the door.
Good luck, and I would highly question getting into that much debt for the training they give/.
Just an observation, but why are a lot of comments made in black and white terms?
There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to colleges, tech schools, and certifications.
Do a little research and find out what's right for you.
Look online. You'll find plenty of comments from actual graduates of these various places and see how they felt about it.
There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to colleges, tech schools, and certifications.
Do a little research and find out what's right for you.
Look online. You'll find plenty of comments from actual graduates of these various places and see how they felt about it.
I agree with Onyxpurr, but why is everybody focusing on a certificate to get a job? What about if you already have a job and want to advance?
I wouldn't turn down an opportunity to attend classes on company time and money.
Everybody complains about lack of training, lack of raise, lack of growth etc.
If your supervisor has to nominate you for promotion/raise, he has to defend your case.
The justification:" he/she is always on time, works hard etc." doesn't work, you are paid for that.
On the other side: "We invested in him, trained him, and he concluded the tests with excellence, here are the certificates" will open doors and also wallets.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
I wouldn't turn down an opportunity to attend classes on company time and money.
Everybody complains about lack of training, lack of raise, lack of growth etc.
If your supervisor has to nominate you for promotion/raise, he has to defend your case.
The justification:" he/she is always on time, works hard etc." doesn't work, you are paid for that.
On the other side: "We invested in him, trained him, and he concluded the tests with excellence, here are the certificates" will open doors and also wallets.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
Natecl,
I just returned from a conference where I spoke to 100 university and college instructors who train IT professionals. We had dinner conversations about the challenges they face in training the IT worker. Here are some of them...
Diversity of starting points:
You have people who have never used technology, hoping to build a career (which is great) mixed in often with people who have been working in and with the technology but feel they want or need degrees for their future career plans. (that sentence ran on waayyy to long). The instructor must guage the rate at which the class must go to acheive the greatest impact.
Often, for the entry-level person - it is too fast and therefore, unproductive. For the person from the field, too-slow and therefore unproductive.
Fortunately, many are now addressing more case-study learning instead of these 4 rote projects completed to get an "A" - kind of thing. But it is a daunting tasks. I was pleased to see that it was one that - at least those in attendence - take very seriously.
Unrealistic Expectations:
Many students enter their school with a "teach me" and then I'll make money mentality. When the reality is that teaching is less about giving a student knowledge and more about helping them discover the information and its application. Then, once school is complete, it is the effective application of that knowledge that produces the opportunity for financial compensation.
I will tell you that from a career perspective, technical aptitude without strong communication skills and business savvy is always going to limit you. This was indicated above. Consider that when you look at any technical program. Do they address these vital skills at all?
While there are some on the board that indicate that no work happens at the top - I am assuming this means management - moving in that direction is both a noble and difficult goal.
Beware the "Us versus Them" mentality that this seems to indicate. Most managers have applied themselves to get where they are. If you come across individiuals who indicate they have problems with most managers because the managers don't do anything, chances are the problem is not the managers.
Find my blog and look for "The man is trying to keep me down" - as a starting point for debunking this mentality. It is career suicide and you will find that it is epidemic in large corporate environments. Beware, beware, beware...
As far as determining the effectiveness with technical schools, I would not use their brochure as an indicator of effectiveness. I would instead audit a class or two. Take a campus tour.
Then, define your objectives and plan accordingly. Whether you decide self-study or classroom, the impetus on learning falls squarely on your shoulders - not on your instructor or class.
Have fun!
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Musings: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
I just returned from a conference where I spoke to 100 university and college instructors who train IT professionals. We had dinner conversations about the challenges they face in training the IT worker. Here are some of them...
Diversity of starting points:
You have people who have never used technology, hoping to build a career (which is great) mixed in often with people who have been working in and with the technology but feel they want or need degrees for their future career plans. (that sentence ran on waayyy to long). The instructor must guage the rate at which the class must go to acheive the greatest impact.
Often, for the entry-level person - it is too fast and therefore, unproductive. For the person from the field, too-slow and therefore unproductive.
Fortunately, many are now addressing more case-study learning instead of these 4 rote projects completed to get an "A" - kind of thing. But it is a daunting tasks. I was pleased to see that it was one that - at least those in attendence - take very seriously.
Unrealistic Expectations:
Many students enter their school with a "teach me" and then I'll make money mentality. When the reality is that teaching is less about giving a student knowledge and more about helping them discover the information and its application. Then, once school is complete, it is the effective application of that knowledge that produces the opportunity for financial compensation.
I will tell you that from a career perspective, technical aptitude without strong communication skills and business savvy is always going to limit you. This was indicated above. Consider that when you look at any technical program. Do they address these vital skills at all?
While there are some on the board that indicate that no work happens at the top - I am assuming this means management - moving in that direction is both a noble and difficult goal.
Beware the "Us versus Them" mentality that this seems to indicate. Most managers have applied themselves to get where they are. If you come across individiuals who indicate they have problems with most managers because the managers don't do anything, chances are the problem is not the managers.
Find my blog and look for "The man is trying to keep me down" - as a starting point for debunking this mentality. It is career suicide and you will find that it is epidemic in large corporate environments. Beware, beware, beware...
As far as determining the effectiveness with technical schools, I would not use their brochure as an indicator of effectiveness. I would instead audit a class or two. Take a campus tour.
Then, define your objectives and plan accordingly. Whether you decide self-study or classroom, the impetus on learning falls squarely on your shoulders - not on your instructor or class.
Have fun!
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Musings: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
Matthew Moran –
Given your work in the industry, I would like your opinion on my situation. My brief background (you may remember from previous posts though) consists of just over ten years in the IT industry. It began working for a small company ($100+ million revenue/year) doing everything related to computers, which you can expect in a small company. This consisted of Windows and Unix administration, RPG coding, database (UniVerse) administration, SQL and UniVerse BASIC coding, network administration, PBX administration, helpdesk support for sales reps in 4 states, technical support for clients that were part of a national contract – both nursing homes and a fast-food chain, learned the operations part of the business from purchasing to A/R and A/P, invoicing, transportation/dispatching of semis and how they were loaded. Everything.
From there I moved to a Fortune 400 company as an Unix admin and learned it in-depth. While there I learned about true disaster recovery and participated in DR testing at IBM facilities located across the U.S. Supported systems included software like WebSphere, DB2, MQSeries, Voice Response Units, Printing software from IBM, Data warehousing. There was $20+ million in IBM hardware. There wasn’t a general, know everything like the previous job, plus there wasn’t the opportunity to learn the business end like I did previously. However, this allowed me to hone my technical skills to a great degree.
From there it was to a government contractor as a Unix admin. There isn’t the work with applications like there was in the job prior, so I cannot learn something like WebSphere. There is no upgrading of the OS or application of maintenance patches. No performance tuning is allowed because, basically, it is running so don’t do anything. When I started there wasn’t a DR plan, so I wrote one up so it could be implemented, but it didn’t. With considerable knowledge of the IBM SP2, I recommended specific tuning because they had performance complaints, however, that wasn’t done either. I recommended and wrote a maintenance policy, but again it was discarded. I have attempted to implement systems management but am met with ambivalence. I have more technical experience and knowledge than others on the team and am the technical resource.
My educational background is a bachelor’s in business administration and a master’s in business education. I have been an adjunct instructor before with classes up to 40 students and developed my own tests and lecture material.
Lately I have been wondering where to go and what next? I have thought of leaving the industry to do something else, but I enjoy technology but find myself constrained and bored. Being able to design, develop, and implement something is pleasing, but every time I am turned away. I have thought of management but would not want to be a manager in a large company like the Fortune company where I worked. And sitting in endless meetings without “doing” something doesn’t interest me. I get bored easily and like challenges and problem-solving. Someday I would like to teach at a college full-time. In the meantime, what would be a good path to follow?
Given your work in the industry, I would like your opinion on my situation. My brief background (you may remember from previous posts though) consists of just over ten years in the IT industry. It began working for a small company ($100+ million revenue/year) doing everything related to computers, which you can expect in a small company. This consisted of Windows and Unix administration, RPG coding, database (UniVerse) administration, SQL and UniVerse BASIC coding, network administration, PBX administration, helpdesk support for sales reps in 4 states, technical support for clients that were part of a national contract – both nursing homes and a fast-food chain, learned the operations part of the business from purchasing to A/R and A/P, invoicing, transportation/dispatching of semis and how they were loaded. Everything.
From there I moved to a Fortune 400 company as an Unix admin and learned it in-depth. While there I learned about true disaster recovery and participated in DR testing at IBM facilities located across the U.S. Supported systems included software like WebSphere, DB2, MQSeries, Voice Response Units, Printing software from IBM, Data warehousing. There was $20+ million in IBM hardware. There wasn’t a general, know everything like the previous job, plus there wasn’t the opportunity to learn the business end like I did previously. However, this allowed me to hone my technical skills to a great degree.
From there it was to a government contractor as a Unix admin. There isn’t the work with applications like there was in the job prior, so I cannot learn something like WebSphere. There is no upgrading of the OS or application of maintenance patches. No performance tuning is allowed because, basically, it is running so don’t do anything. When I started there wasn’t a DR plan, so I wrote one up so it could be implemented, but it didn’t. With considerable knowledge of the IBM SP2, I recommended specific tuning because they had performance complaints, however, that wasn’t done either. I recommended and wrote a maintenance policy, but again it was discarded. I have attempted to implement systems management but am met with ambivalence. I have more technical experience and knowledge than others on the team and am the technical resource.
My educational background is a bachelor’s in business administration and a master’s in business education. I have been an adjunct instructor before with classes up to 40 students and developed my own tests and lecture material.
Lately I have been wondering where to go and what next? I have thought of leaving the industry to do something else, but I enjoy technology but find myself constrained and bored. Being able to design, develop, and implement something is pleasing, but every time I am turned away. I have thought of management but would not want to be a manager in a large company like the Fortune company where I worked. And sitting in endless meetings without “doing” something doesn’t interest me. I get bored easily and like challenges and problem-solving. Someday I would like to teach at a college full-time. In the meantime, what would be a good path to follow?
Khz,
I understand the dilemma of wanting to be strategically involved and heard. It is why I have consulted for the past 10 years.
One thing you might consider is a small business market. I promote this a lot for several reasons:
1) They are under-serviced.
The fact is that most technology professionals and large consulting houses, focus on large corporations. There are many profitable, growing, and forward-thinking small companies who do not have good technology direction and implementation.
2) You gain tremendous exposure.
Both technical and with your career network of professionals. Working with a smaller organization, they expect you to create the disaster-recovery plan, build productivity tools, train end-users, etc. For some, this is difficult and stressful, but I love the fast pace and constant change.
You also work closely with executive management and business ownership. This has incredible potential when it comes to moving within the organization and meeting their peers, working with vendors, etc. The career opportunities can be excellent.
3) They are often faster moving.
Small business can more-easily move on new projects - if they are valuable. This means that ideas you present will not need to go through 25 levels of approval before they are acted upon.
When I say small business, I don't mean a 2 person ma and pa shop. A good small business can be 25-200 people. To me it is the most exciting and opportunity ready market available to good, high-production technologist.
Thanks for asking and I hope this was helpful.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Musings: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
I understand the dilemma of wanting to be strategically involved and heard. It is why I have consulted for the past 10 years.
One thing you might consider is a small business market. I promote this a lot for several reasons:
1) They are under-serviced.
The fact is that most technology professionals and large consulting houses, focus on large corporations. There are many profitable, growing, and forward-thinking small companies who do not have good technology direction and implementation.
2) You gain tremendous exposure.
Both technical and with your career network of professionals. Working with a smaller organization, they expect you to create the disaster-recovery plan, build productivity tools, train end-users, etc. For some, this is difficult and stressful, but I love the fast pace and constant change.
You also work closely with executive management and business ownership. This has incredible potential when it comes to moving within the organization and meeting their peers, working with vendors, etc. The career opportunities can be excellent.
3) They are often faster moving.
Small business can more-easily move on new projects - if they are valuable. This means that ideas you present will not need to go through 25 levels of approval before they are acted upon.
When I say small business, I don't mean a 2 person ma and pa shop. A good small business can be 25-200 people. To me it is the most exciting and opportunity ready market available to good, high-production technologist.
Thanks for asking and I hope this was helpful.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Musings: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
Matthew Moran -
Thank you for your comments. Your phrase "strategically involved and heard" seems to be so true. If one uses the example of a programmer who just writes code vs. a software engineer who designs is where I am coming from. As mentioned, I get bored and need challenges. Coding the same day-in/day-out would not be for me. I would need to progress. That seems to be where I am at. Doing daily Unix sys admin work day-in/day-out has become so routine and boring without any challenges.
And anyone can learn Unix and become and admin. Anyone can do the daily drudgery. Because of that, pay can only go so high before you max out. I want to do more and with that pay increases to higher levels. And with doing more I can be of more help to future students and be in a better position to get that F/T teaching position.
Thank you for your comments. Your phrase "strategically involved and heard" seems to be so true. If one uses the example of a programmer who just writes code vs. a software engineer who designs is where I am coming from. As mentioned, I get bored and need challenges. Coding the same day-in/day-out would not be for me. I would need to progress. That seems to be where I am at. Doing daily Unix sys admin work day-in/day-out has become so routine and boring without any challenges.
And anyone can learn Unix and become and admin. Anyone can do the daily drudgery. Because of that, pay can only go so high before you max out. I want to do more and with that pay increases to higher levels. And with doing more I can be of more help to future students and be in a better position to get that F/T teaching position.
benlinkknilneb
Programmer
Thought I'd throw in my $.02 US...
All through college I thought school was a complete waste of time. I knew more than several of my profs... and proved it on multiple occasions. However, I just started in a position this week that I couldn't have even interviewed for without a degree, and because of the salary, my wife (I'm 22, she's 23 years old) doesn't have to work. As little knowledge as I gained from my "education", ask my wife how much she values that piece of paper I got...
Ben
There's no place like 127.0.0.1.
All through college I thought school was a complete waste of time. I knew more than several of my profs... and proved it on multiple occasions. However, I just started in a position this week that I couldn't have even interviewed for without a degree, and because of the salary, my wife (I'm 22, she's 23 years old) doesn't have to work. As little knowledge as I gained from my "education", ask my wife how much she values that piece of paper I got...
Ben
There's no place like 127.0.0.1.
Well, in every descent educational institution I know they also recruit teachers/employees from the classes, and they are looking for the best.
The onces that stand-out (positive) in the crowd are offered scholarships, are asked to participate in projects etc..
When the headhunters arrive they are in top of the list, and have good references (tecnical and social) from profs and also from the other students.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
The onces that stand-out (positive) in the crowd are offered scholarships, are asked to participate in projects etc..
When the headhunters arrive they are in top of the list, and have good references (tecnical and social) from profs and also from the other students.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
- Thread starter
- #30
Great stuff guys. Since deciding to cut short my education for some hands on experience, I can say tomorrow I may land my second job. I have been working as a Tech Service Rep for a large company that landed a bunch of government contracts. Backing up and restoring all those important pics of peoples dogs and boy/gfs. Tomorrow I hope to land a Tech Support Rep. position at a even larger internet/cable provider. I have not wrote any certs...my educational career is still in limbo, as I MAY return in may for another 4 months, so I havent received any diploma for what I have completed. I'd have to say alot comes down to professionalism and 'interpersonal' skills.
Natecl,
It's about getting the piece of paper! While you are there try to learn as much as you can. Spend extra time work with the stuff. It is a good Idea to buy a few computers and dive into it (The best way to learn is to do it).
Just my 2cents
Wizdom
It's about getting the piece of paper! While you are there try to learn as much as you can. Spend extra time work with the stuff. It is a good Idea to buy a few computers and dive into it (The best way to learn is to do it).
Just my 2cents
Wizdom
beanbrain
Programmer
- Dec 31, 2001
- 170
Nate:
If this is a larger outfit than the one you are coming from see if the new place has some sort of sponsored training or re-imbursment program. You are worth more to them with better training. There's no law in place that prevents you from using paper someone else paid for to further your career. thank the gods And in this profession looking forward to the next job/company is always advisable.
If this is a larger outfit than the one you are coming from see if the new place has some sort of sponsored training or re-imbursment program. You are worth more to them with better training. There's no law in place that prevents you from using paper someone else paid for to further your career. thank the gods And in this profession looking forward to the next job/company is always advisable.
We are an independend applciations development firm with a very stron netwrok integration arm and...........
About technical schools and their graduates.............
We don't hire them anymore.
We prefer to hire individuals who have taken the time to learn how to read, write, and discuss ideas.
Some of those indivudals went to college, some finished college and many have not.
Most have not been to college or such studies in anything remotely close to programming and computer science.
What we find from Tech School individuals is "show me the money" attitude and an attitude that implies I have learned what I need,, now give me a great high paying job.'
Years ago an ad on tv said it better....
We are looking for tunas that taste good, not tuna's with good taste.
About technical schools and their graduates.............
We don't hire them anymore.
We prefer to hire individuals who have taken the time to learn how to read, write, and discuss ideas.
Some of those indivudals went to college, some finished college and many have not.
Most have not been to college or such studies in anything remotely close to programming and computer science.
What we find from Tech School individuals is "show me the money" attitude and an attitude that implies I have learned what I need,, now give me a great high paying job.'
Years ago an ad on tv said it better....
We are looking for tunas that taste good, not tuna's with good taste.
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