You get what you pay for 1

[paleogryph]

This showed up in the Salt Lake Tribune classifieds (

http://www.sltrib.com)

on Sunday, May 2nd. This is an example of how ridiculous some employers can get, and unfortunately, this isn't the first time I've seen ads like this:

"COMPUTER IT director small company WXP, HTML, MYSQL, PHP, CGI, $8-$10/hr Fax resume 277-6557 ... "

I'm sorry, but when managers at McDonalds are making much more than $8-$10/hr, how can someone keep a straight face advertising for a "IT director" position that pays $8-$10/hr? How much do cooks make at McDonalds? Probably $8-$10/hr...


>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[screwloose]

Look at what they are asking for in skills: WinXP (experimental ), PHP, HTML, MySQL, CGI. None of these are in short supply as far as abilities. Almost anyone can do HTML (you don’t even need to know it really, use a point-and-click editor), and PHP can be picked up quickly to do a simple website. They are using PHP to tie into the MySQL database, which is probably a very simple database with most likely one table and a couple rows.

It all depends upon skills and abilities and requisite knowledge, which I mentioned none of those listed skills presents themselves as being in short supply or requiring in-depth knowledge and experience. As far as the “Director” that was listed. NOBODY who is looking for an IT management position will even consider looking at something like this. Most likely, it will be filled by a part-time employee, a high school or college kid, or somebody who is not a primary breadwinner. Everyone knows what a real Director is, and what they are responsible for, and this is not that type of position. Even if a college student accepts the job, they would not be advised to put “IT Director” on their resume upon graduation, unless they want to come across as an ignorant and inept fool, because NO employer is going to believe that position was a “IT Director.”

Don’t get your shorts all twisted up in thinking that all employers are paying IT people $8-10/hour. I have just started looking for a job and have had a couple of interviews and I have been telling them up front that I am looking for a salary around $70k and that has been acceptable to all and without any negative reaction.

 

[paleogryph]

Yea, I don't take these sort of things seriously, but like I said, I have seen several other ads like this over the past couple of years. Essentially since the economy has taken a dive many companies know they have their pick of the litter so they think they can get IT on the cheap...

If a company needs a full time IT person, it probably has 20 or more employees, and if they have that many employees and are generating revenue then they have considerable information assets to protect. If they are putting their information assets in the hands of someone getting paid that amount, that, in my opinion, is a mistake.


>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[TheLumberingAdmin]

Looks like my last job as a "systems administrator"; started working there just out of high school. I had to know a little bit of everything, or at least be able to fake it long enough to learn it. And the pay was horrible; about on par with that. But I was only a systems admin in title; the job was more like IT Support Tech I (various duties... troubleshooting the day to day problems, keeping systems up to date, upgrading hardware/software, basic web design stuff, assiting with e-commerce processes for online store); which, coincidently, is what my title is with the company I work for now (and I get paid a lot better, with much better benefits; go figure).

That company needs to tone down the job title a little. An IT Director doesn't usually do much coding... though he may make the decisions for what should be in the code. What they're looking for is more like a "systems/website admin" (or even replace admin with "technician"). Its not really a management position of any kind (from the job ad, anyway), nor does it pay inline with one. Just another case of a small company not knowing what they need (or at least, in this case, what to call it!).

It would be scary, however, if they really WERE looking for an employee of "IT Director" calibre, and thought they could get away with paying that pitance. And yes... MickeyD's Managers usually make a HECK of a lot more than $8-$10/hr.

Sometimes I think I'm in the wrong industry.

 

[dilettante]

If they want somebody to do web development as well as wash the PC bottles, I'm surprised they didn't ask for graphic design experience and PhotoShop skills too.

I'm sure you can get somebody for $10 who can do what they ask, as long as they're willing to let him/her cruise Tek-Tips and such sites to bail the "IT Director" out of every problem he bumps into. I wonder if this is where some of the off the wall questions here come from?

 

[MDXer]

While the ad posted is laughable for the title/rate excluding skills asked for it does raise a valid point. Many companies out there are still looking to do things as cheap as possible.

A perfect example was a contract offered to me towards the end of last year. The details were:
1) Experience in Large Proclarity implementations.
2) High degree of skills in MDX
3) SQL
4) Large Analysis Services implementations
5) Worked with Large OLAP Cubes
6) Analysis Services Performance and optimization.

The job was on the east coast and I live in the west coast. I was approached and asked for an hourly rate, I asked if I would be responsible for my own expenses, which I was told I would be. A couple hours of research on what my expenses would have been per week and what my rate from a prior engagement was I figured going rate would be between 100 and 135 an hour. I have associates with a couple years more experience than me we regularly bill at $250 an hour. I told the company what the rate would be and they asked if I could bring it to 80 or less an hour they had a less qualified person offering $50 an hour, which I responded nothing less than $100, needless to say they took the $50 an hour offer. I moved on to other work , but recieved a call approx 3 weeks later from the same company only a higher person in the decision tree saying they would accept the $100 an hour offer. I asked what happened with the person they had contracted, which the answer was "He didn't know what he was doing".

If companies insist on paying menial wages then they can't expect a lot from the people they do hire. $8-$10 an hour is barely entry level.

&quot;Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!&quot;
- Daffy Duck

 

[jwenting]

And that's why the US IT industry is being outsourced ever more rapidly...
European wages are €20-€25 an hour for the positions described here (programming, sysadmin) and OUR jobs are on the line as prices in India and Pakistan are 50% or less of that, yet you consider $100+ an hour a quite normal rate still.

 

[dilettante]

Well you need to consider a couple of things there. First MDXer seems to be talking about billing rates for high-cost areas such as the East and West coasts or someplace like Ann Arbor, MI. But secondly, he's talking about niche skills. Data Warehousing expertise is a very narrow segment of the market, and one of the areas where a good skill set and some experience command high rates.

This is seen to a smaller extent in the category of "database administrator." I know of several cases locally where folks wearing a "DBA" badge get some really good money even though their real skills are on the order of an old-time computer operator plus the ability to whang out SQL expressions. The real DBA-ing is done by contractors, who in turn get the really good money. MDXer may just be an example of a "real DW-er."

Scams like that are another example though of why employers have become disenchanted with IT staff costs. As they uncover these "pretenders" (whether DBAs, programmers, or box admins) they don't seem to handle it correctly. Part of it seems to be their inability to admit they made an error. Instead they whinge that "Americans" ("Britains" what have you) "need more education" and so on. The assumption is seemingly that a good hiring decision was made - but people in general are just too dumb and need smartening up. After all, bringing in a "smart" contractor gets the problem solved, albeit at a high price. Plus you get to be politically correct and bemoan the state of public education, always a plus while sipping chilled white wine at the clubhouse after a rousing 18 holes.

So in the meantime the value of IT staff is diminished, resulting in pressure to reduce compensation ("I can hire cheap idiots anyplace if I want idiots").

Of course it might help if they'd stop relying on nepotism and cronyism in their hiring process. ;-)

 

[chiph]

A good saying that I've heard:

If you're only willing to pay peanuts, all you'll be able to hire is monkeys

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[MDXer]

As I also said at the rate I proposed I was resonsible for all my own expenses and taxes. Since I live in on the west coast and would be required to be onsite 4-5 days a week expenses alone are quite a chunk. Airfare in the area of $800-$1000 each trip rental car of approx $400 a week Hotel $50 - $100 a night and $40 a day for meals

4000 for a 40 hour bill week
600 Fica
800 Fed income Tax
1400 Total Taxes
1450 approx minimum expenses
1700 approx max expenses

after expenses and taxes income would be around 950 a week or 23-24 an hour.

As you can see once the cost of doing business is included then an actual take home isn't much more than standard income.

I just find it odd that a company with over 1,000 emloyees would fail to see that there is a cost of doing business by those it contracts out.

Other alternatives are for a company to use w-2 contractors making them responisable for part of the fica taxes or eating some of the larger expenses such as hotel or airfare.

&quot;Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!&quot;
- Daffy Duck

 

[dilettante]

Yes MDXer, I saw that the first time through myself but got too caught up in my own hand-wringing to remember to mention it. Expenses are an important factor in pricing contract work.

 

[GlenJohnson]

Expenses are the reason some of these job postings are being placed in the India Gazzette. Problem is, we're back to you get what you pay for. I read a recent article that Dell was bringing back a large part of there tech support from India because they were losing customers left and right. Maybe these employers think that because so much is being done overseas, they can ask for less from us because so many are out of jobs. I started my own IT business partly because the normal person on the street can't pay $100+ an hour just to find out the modem isn't plugged in tight, when they have to pay the first hour even though the solution took 30 seconds. There's been a couple of times when I could not in good faith charge someone when I was able to give them the solution over the phone when the problem was so simple. End of rant. Thanks.

Glen A. Johnson
If you're from Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin feel free to join the Tek-Tips in Chicago, Illinois Forum.

TTinChicago
Johnson Computers

 

[paleogryph]

GlenJohnson, thats interesting that you mentioned ethics in how much you charge customers:

"because the normal person on the street can't pay $100+ an hour just to find out the modem isn't plugged in tight, when they have to pay the first hour even though the solution took 30 seconds."

I do consulting work for customers here in the SF Bay Area and I charge $75/hr. However, depending on the problem, and how long it took to correct it, I agree with you that it's ridiculous to charge someone that much for a basic problem. Also affecting the charge is how far I had to drive to get there, especially now since gas is so expensive.


>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[paleogryph]

Oh, here is another great ad I saw on Monster:

"LaunchpadIT, a nationwide information technology internship service, is THE career launcher for ambitious techies. LaunchpadIT combines serious comprehensive IT training, 1 year fulltime internship as a LAN/WAN engineer/analyst/administrator, and career development mentoring from IT veterans. Upon successful completion of LaunchpadIT, you will have the LAN/WAN knowledge and work experience of a professional with 5 – 7 years of fulltime experience. "

1 year of internship = 5-7 years of fulltime experience. Whats wrong with this picture?



>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[dogbert2]

Paleo,

I find those type of ads so laughable as to not even be seriously considered when I look at them. There is NO way a one year internship (in any field) will equal 5 to 7 years of practical experience (ask an M.D. or a Lawyer if you have any doubts...).

 

[johnherman]

Perhaps 5-7 years of experience at LaunchpadIT are only worth 6 months in real companies.

Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side because there is more manure there - original.

 

[paleogryph]

Yea, and at $8/hour, thats gonna be a long 5-7 years!


>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[jwenting]

depending on how much overtime you're demanded to pull I can't see anyone getting more than 3 years experience in a single year P-)
There are of course people working 2 fulltime jobs, so that could be doubled (but then they'd have to be really modern and have a parallel processing brain working in tandem with itself)

But maybe they mean that they are wagging a carrot of a 5 year contract to commence at the end of the internship ;-)

 

[paleogryph]

Heres another good one:

"Microsoft and Crisco certifications weigh strongly in the candidates favor."


>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.

 

[jrbarnett]

paleogryph,

Assuming that was not a typo, I may just be inclined if applying for that job to invent a cert myself, fairly similar in name to an existing one and quote it on my CV, then see if they'll fall for it.

How about an MCCE (Myself Certified Computer Expert) or a CNCE (Computer Networking Certified Engineer)? Think this lot will fall for it?

If I get invited for interview, all I need to do is print out a nice certificate on a good quality printer and take it with me.

John