Would we be so critical of Microsoft if it was a free system? 5

[Craftor]

Looking at the current posts in the forums - there has been a lot of critisism (rightly or wrongly - I'm not judging) on Microsoft.

I'd like to hear a discussion from people on whether they think MS would get as much critisism if it was a free OS? Is some of our critisism partly based on spite because MS has made millions?

I'm not here to say MS is in the right or in the wrong (personally I'm a Linux fan...) I just think this could be a really interesting topic.

Thoughts, please?

Craftor

 

[Tarwn]

Yes, it took them a whole two days to re-investigate another possible use for a hole in IE and upgrade it, they should have had the entire investigation done in under 10 minutes...

It doesn't matter how many bugs you find in your software, there will always be one more, and just because a bug is found and being fixed doesn't mean someone won't find a new way to take advantage of it.

I see a lot of posts demanding perfection from MS, as long as they turn out software that has even the most minor flaw, people will continue to criticize them. I think the idea that making it free would reduce criticism is a non-determinate theory. A lot of people criticize MS Windows for no better reason than because other people do, or they have heard things about it. It is not often that the majority of these people seem to actually do any research on the matter or even reword the person they ar inadvertantly quoting.

Make the OS free, people will complain, make the source free, people will complain, give 100 people free lemonade, someone will complain. Nature of the beast.

-Tarwn
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http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[sleipnir214]

Tarwn:

Earlier in life, I was an aircraft mechanic. I can personally guarantee you that every plane on which you have ever flown had something wrong with it. That something was minor enough so as to not affect the safety of the passengers, but there was something wrong with it.

I know I don't demand perfection -- just responsiveness. Take a look here to find documentation of that lack on the part of Mi¢ro$oft:

http://www.greymagic.com/news/

But the link from the earlier post ties in with my thesis -- that Mi¢ro$oft does not pay more than lip-service to security. None of ActiveX, VBScript, or their implementation of Java were ever sandboxed sufficiently, and have been been an ongoing source of problems for years. When for market-share reasons Mi¢ro$oft decided to make IE "part of the operating system" and reuse the engine code everywhere, html email worms and virii started cropping up everywhere. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[Tarwn]

Oh, I agree with your points, I was actually commenting back to the original topic (other than the first line that is)

-Tarwn
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http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[gurner]

99 little BUGS in the code,
99 BUGS in the code,
fix one BUG, compile it again,
101 little BUGS in the code.

101 little BUGS in the code.....
Repeat until BUGS == 0

 

[Tarwn]

I tried, but I got a type casting error, type long integer can't be placed in integer....must be a bug

-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[craigsboyd]

Well, I must say that this has been a very engaging read...a lot of posts since my last. Tarwn I really appreciated what you had to say.

I disagree with some of the conclusions and evaluations about Microsoft and noticed a number of links to grave security issues with the Windows OS and Microsoft Software products...I did go read them. If one scours the web for security flaws I believe that one could make a case against any OS...I heard Linux mentioned

http://www.safenetworks.com/Linux/linux.html

I heard Unix and Apache mentioned...have you already forgotten the hole that allowed the Slapper worm and rocked the open source community and their webservers back in September? Here's some ammo for both sides of the argument...you tell me about 20 and i'll tell you about 20

http://www.sans.org/top20/

I hear MAC mentioned...go to

http://online.securityfocus.com/

and look in the vulneribility section (vulns) search keyword MAC

Come on, anyone who feels that Windows is just garbage and that all these other Operating Systems are the greatest marvels of security/reliability/scalability the world has ever known are just spouting rhetoric...and usually second-hand rhetoric at that. Can a case be made against Microsoft? SURE! Anybody with an internet connection and IE (Netscape or Opera for those not Microsoft inclined) and the ability to type "

http://www.google.com"

in as an URL can make a case against Microsoft...but don't think that the same can't be done to all the others. We can create scenarios where one OS would out-perform another until the cows come home. Is a security flaw in Windows a big deal? ABSOLUTELY! When you have the kind of market share that Microsoft has then it is indeed a big deal because so many more consumers can be potentially adversely effected by it.

Have I used and programmed for all of the Operating Systems we've been talking about? YES Do I currently run computers with all of the Operating Systems that have been spoken of here? YES I'm only saying this so you'll know that I am not just going on something I read in the latest copy of a Magazine or in some forum that I belong to or heard while on a smoke break with my co-workers.

My point is this...I believe Microsoft does indeed get a bad rap due to it's size, profitability, and exposure. That was the real question of this thread i believe. I tend to spend much more time on my comps running Windows because that suits my needs...and should I have a need that is suited by moving to the chair in front of one of my other computers that is running a non-Microsoft OS then I simply pick my butt up and move over there for a bit. And what was this stuff about not being able to pick and choose what you run because of Microsoft? Don't like IE use Opera, don't like IIS use Apache, don't like Windows Media Player use MusicMatch, don't like Outlook use Eudora, don't like the office suite use StarOffice or Corel etc. Other than the OS I'm not sure what is being referred to by this notion that Microsoft has cut off your choices to have pickles and/or onions. Maybe an implicit reference to BUNDLING? That argument doesn't hold water either and I would get into that but that's not what this thread started on and I stray far enough as it is.

Microsoft is on top of the heap because they meet the vast majority of consumers' needs the best out of all the other Operating Systems out there. Unix/Linux (in a myriad of flavors) is FREE for the download and STILL the overwhelming majority of consumers go with Microsoft and pony up the bucks to buy it. Why? Because they WANT what Microsoft Windows has to offer. If they wanted a copy of FreeBSD or Redhat or Mandrake (etc.) then they would go get it and save themselves a few dollars. Slighthaze = NULL

 

[sleipnir214]

slighthaze:

Mi¢ro$oft is not on top because they give the people what they want. Mi¢ro$oft is on top because they were in a position to tell people what they should want, back in the days before anyone knew anything.

Which goes back to my point: the way users are treated by Mi¢ro$oft. I expect software to have bugs. I just expect the publisher to fix them in a timely manner -- particularly if that publisher is claiming to publish the best software in the world. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[craigsboyd]

sleipnir214

I couldn't agree with you more about fixing bugs in a TIMELY MANNER...

What do you consider timely? Is timely proportional to the threat and/or the actual damage? Does it take into account researching the threat to ascertain that it exists, it's scope, proposing solutions, implementation of a solution and testing of that solution? Does timely take into consideration prioritization of work?

I personally think that timely is relative to all those things and more and that hindsight is always 20/20. I just don't see Microsoft the way you do and you don't see them the way I do...just a couple people looking at the same thing from different perspectives. I see the glass as half full and you see it as half empty. I have enjoyed this conversation nonetheless and appreciate your responses. Slighthaze = NULL

 

[sleipnir214]

slighthaze:

My experience with Mi¢ro$oft's OSes comes from years of managing a multi-site WAN running their software.

And although they have improved tremendously in the last year (they had nowhere to go but up), I remember when it would take Mi¢ro$oft 6 months to admit a piece of software even had a bug, then another two months to make the patch available.

That's what I consider untimely. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[icrf]

I run no anti-virus protection on my local win2k machine, but I run opera instead of ie and eudora instead of outlook, and I can't remember the last time I was infected. Every now and again I'll head over to one of those java-applet scanners and it'll find something, but it was a nice file attachment sent to me, but never opened, never run, never spread or infected. Just sitting there.

I still run win2k because I'm too lazy to learn anything else and there's such a huge software pool available. Slowly, I'm ridding myself of MS products, but something drastic will probably have to happen to drop the OS. I write programs for customers, and if the customers use win32, I'll develop in win32.

On the flip side, I'm rather fond of Visual Studio. Their compiler isn't that grand, but the IDE is beautifully effective. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but I'm just a C man trying to see the light

 

[Walterk01]

If my computer works - (what I consider flawlessly) - and the programs work together Then Microsoft can have my money and my support. I hated the old days of DOS and programs that were not interchangable. I believe a majority of people feel the same way...if we didn't we would all be on Macintoshes.

 

[sleipnir214]

Walterk01:

I refer you to my earlier comments about Mi¢ro$oft's software engineering practices. It is possible to integrate software without introducing enormous security holes at the same time -- Mi&cent'ro$oft just hasn't taken the problem seriously enough. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[spikestik]

I find it interesting that we complain about the BEAST that makes the software that we have to buy...upgrades it in a manner that forces us to have to buy new....yet it is the same thing as lets say...radar detectors. Seriously ... who do we think makes the radar guns? The same guys that make the detectors...yet we spend the money on those.

It is a double edged sword...no matter what MS will always rule the software empire because so many of us are slaves to them. Until we break away and use another ... we will always be caught in the crossfire.

 

[algernonsidney]

People just resent the fact that Bill Gates is one of the world's richest people. It's hatred of success for being success. It is motivated by nothing but that.

A lot of Linux people are already calling Red Hat the "Microsoft of Linux." I suppose it's because they are "on top."

Chris

 

[sleipnir214]

algernonsidney
You are incorrect. I don't resent Bill Gates' wealth at all. Want it? Sure. Envy it? Almost certainly. Resent it? Not in the least.

My argument is not with Bill Gates at all. It is very specifically with Mi¢ro$oft's software engineering and business practices. It wouldn't matter if Mi¢ro$oft were run by Mohandes K. Ghandi -- I would still dislike the company on these grounds. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[Kjonnnn]

Here's my questions then:

Do the other "less expensive" OS on the market do as much MS products do?

Are the amount of flaws in MS product relative to the amount of functionality MS has.

Im not a programmer, but I can imagine that the more complex a software package is, the more complex the code, and therefore, the more likely there will be flaws, just on a statisical basis.

 

[sleipnir214]

Kjonnn:
Do they have all the features? No. Do they have the features you'll use? Probably.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[skiflyer]

Kjonnn

Depends how you define "do as much".

Most do more in almost every measurable way of productivity. (speed, configurability, stability, etc...)

Most do less if you count the number of 3rd party programs the run.

And, IMHO the reason Windows sells so much better, most do less if you measure the look and feel and functionality straight out of the box, hitting enter through every choice you're given on setup. (The new linux installers are making this less true every round)

And then there's also another question, for which I believe some of the market share can be explained...

Most people don't need 1/3 of what a computer can do... so even if these free systems are far superior, if they don't do the basic 10% well and pretty and in a way that someone who has never touched a computer can understand, then they aren't going to be very attractive to those people.

-Rob
Whose personal leanings always say... I wish I had more time to learn and use my linux box more, but customers and applications all seem to run on this windows OS...

 

[sleipnir214]

skiflyer:
Do what I did once. I had a boss that told me since the company was a Mi¢ro$oft partner, everyting on the network must be Mi¢ro$oft software. The next day he told me he needed a new development domain installed on the network.

Being the obedient SOB that I am, I installed Linux and Samba, making the Linux/Samba box the domain controller for the new domain. I guess it was 6 months before he was any the wiser -- and only then because he wanted me to tell him about this "Linux stuff" and I showed him that his development domain controller and print server had been open-source the whole time.

He got his domain, I got a lot of experience in the software. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[PalmStrike]

Hi Chaps, I just wanted to put my oar in, hope someone gets to the bottom of this to read it.

I have no problem with Microsoft charging what they do for their operating system, it is the lack of support or rather the fact that they charge you when it goes wrong.

I have used up all our companies free support things on the software we have (you get two instances of support per software, unless you bought you computer from someone like Dell, then you get none, cos they won't help you) and now we have certain pc's that we just can't get to work which I know microsoft could fix in a matter of minutes.( I have never been on the phone to microsoft for more than 10 mins without them fixing the problem successfully)

In this way, microsoft hold you to ransom, which I think is an abomination. Particularly as they are happy to publisise that they SELL there software to the general public to test.

Nuff said