Why Linux is Cheap 14

[eman6]

This is for all those who defend Linux.
First: Remember, if there was no MS Windows and MS Office in the market, and if it wasn't so popular, Linux would either never have existed, or it would probably be of higher price than MS products.

Second: What is Linux? Correct me if I am mistaken please. Linux is an attempt to force a Unix-Like product into the very popular Personal Computer, so that we (the volks) can use it at home (or small office) and not only on big systems at big companies.

Now my big question is: Regardless of the price. Do we need Linux? Aren't we re-inventing the wheel?
The brilliant ideas behind MS Windows was to create a user-friendly, easy to understand and use inteface and to be able to run more than one program simultaneously.
Thanks to Microsoft, only few people are still afraid of computers and feel only specialized professionals can use them. Mainly people older than 40 or 50, mostly.

So what we really need, is not a re-invention of what exists already but to have what exists in more appropriate form. In other words to have MS products:
1) Fine tuned for a minimum of bugs rather than a multitude of unnecessary (paid anyway) features.
2) Fine tune the prices so less people have to use illegal copies mostly because they just cannot afford to buy them even if they would love to have them.


Eman_2005
Technical Communicator

http://www.smartistek.com

 

[Stevehewitt]

WombatSound
I agree with the majority of your post - very accurate; and I agree that FreeBSD is more secure out of the box - no argument there!
However, you mention the GUI and installation. If it was as hard to install Windows as it was FreeBSD, then FreeBSD and Linux would be a lot more popular. I'm not just talking about installation - but overall user interface. My grandparents can install Windows; but I'd have to have a Windows PC with access to Google to get FreeBSD going.
It's ease of use. Yep, alternatives are more secure out of the box; but the majority of end users woudn't get that far with non-Windows machines.
Windows will never (well, I'd can't see it happening anyway) be able to install in 5 minutes. On a decent spec server, and if you use something such as Win2003 Server SP1 CD then you can do installation and updates in about 40 minutes top.
If you were to do them regularly then of course you could go to the hassle of creating scripts that will specific exactly what you require to be installed and requires no user input - shaving a good 5 - 10 minutes of installation.

Whilst nowhere near as quick as FreeBSD, Win2k3 comes with directory services (I'm a big fan of AD), DNS, DHCP, IIS, Streaming Media Services, Telephony, Terminal Services, Certificate Services and even Backup software. (In need of a huge update admitilly!) If you were a small business and wanted a directory service machine with DNS, web servicing and backup it's all there. Just requires ticking a box and a minute to slap the files from the hard drive. With FreeBSD I'm assuming you would have to select these as additionals or even go online and download them.
Anyway - i'm getting completely off the point!

And in terms of security out of the box, people often forget the advances since the awful period between 1995 and 1999. (Win95, 98 and ME) Whilst nowhere near as secure or as powerful as FreeBSD and Linux, the XPsp2 firewall is pretty much a NAT firewall, protecting from a hell of a lot. Most security probs on Windows now require users to be stupid enough to open up files in email or go to dodgey websites.

We do need Linux and other alternatives - if only to keep on push Windows to a better OS than the state they got themselves into during the late 90's. Competition is good. *nix systems have made great advances between the late 90's to current days; which I personally think is why WinXP Pro SP2 / Win2k Pro SP4 are so good compared to previous versions of Windows.


pmonett
Hmm, not sure I'm going to agree!
I'm currently at a mid-sized company (600 odd users). Once a worm gets into the network then all servers are infected. Find something to get past our firewalls and AV's then we've got problems. Windows runs on more servers, and the majority of these servers provide critical infrastructure for companies. DNS, DHCP, Directory services, SQL databases, intranets, even telephony services such as call centre diallers.
Our point-of-sale application runs on RH Enterprise 9, and it's techincally very, very good. (UI has something to be desired for..!) However, if there was a virus against RH9 and we were infected; if wouldn't cause anywhere near as much hassle as out Win2k/Win2k3 servers crashing.

A website is problematic and a big issue. A enterprise infrastructure being brought to it's knees' is a much bigger problem. Hence why I personally think that Windows is a bigger target for attacks.

Cheers,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[pmonett]

Steve :

It's easy to settle this part of the debate. You are talking about attacks in general, including worms, trojans, assorted viruses and web hacks. Of course, there is no argument there - Windows in all flavors largely outnumber anything else. I agree with you there, no question.

I am talking essentially about web hacks, the means attackers have to overtake an internet-connected computer (not e-mail). You know, port scans, buffer overflow and all that fun stuff. In this case, Linux is just as important as Windows, and many other Unix flavors (and probably some Macs) complete the picture. I believe that, in this case, Linux is just as "visible" a target, but its better security makes attackers prefer Windows, a much easier target in general.

Of course, once the attacker has breached the walls, all bets are off and it's time for mayhem on MS systems.

Pascal.

 

[Stevehewitt]

Agreed!

Although security cannot be measured just on the web side of things!

Thanks,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[rtshort]

eman6, I can't really say that I read all of the post under yours, though I did read quite a few. I agree with what you have said/asked.

Microsoft is a very inovative company. They do make computers easier for everyone to use. I personally like MS and all of their products.

Linux and others are taking aim at MS directly. I think that one of the most amusing things they say is that it will run MS software. (Lindows, now Linspire in particular) Hell, if you want an OS that runs MS software, why not use Windows. That's what is is made for. LOL

Linux, Linspire, & etc. are just as easy to write viruses for. No one takes the time to do that because MS OS's are on 90% or greater of the ENTIRE worlds computers.

If, as someone above said, their grandmother has to use a lot of her income to keep her computer running, I would suggest that he purchase her some anti-virus software (or even download AVG Free Edition) and teach her to upgrade it. There are also a LOT of free spyware programs that you can download. Download them, teach her to use them, and show her how to upgrade them. MS has a free download of it's beta anti-spyware program that even protects computers while they are running. (for legal copies of Windows only).

I write programs with MS Software. It's easy to write and you can accomplish anything that you want with it. Granted that it takes MS IE to run most of the web apps that I develop, it is part of Windows and does not have to be downloaded like other browsers. Writing cross-platform programs is a bitch. I code a lot with VBS and starting to get into .NET. The fact that it requires MS IE to run doesn't bother me a bit since, as mentioned above, comes with Windows.

Forgive me, but I just luv MS.

Rob
Just my $.02.

 

[eman6]

rtshort
Thank you for your post.
It is really hard to be objective in this debate, because if you say the pro and the con while your opponent says only the con, then you look like a loser.

I, for one, criticise Microsoft many times for bugs and some uncomfortable features.
But I want to emphasize here, if we look at the size of what Microsoft covers, in terms of not just operating systems(there are more than one, by the way), office applications, development platforms, etc, it is very normal and expected to have imperfections in their products.
It is also expected to have attacks. Whoever has tremendous success in life receives attacks. That's life.
The sure thing is: Microsoft changed the history of the entire humanity and it keeps changing it to the better.
Computers and softare applications are wide-spread rather than restricted to specialists. It is mostly those specialists who don't like it that all the others can use computers.
Some people like to remain distinguished because they are not up to the challenge in life. If something challenges what they are particularly good at, they hate it, because without it they have nothing else.

If for nothing else, I very much admire Bill Gates' confidence and courage.
He is really, really brilliant in all the sense of the word, no matter how many 'human' mistakes are committed by the thousands of 'human' high caliber developers working for Microsoft, facing the challenge of serving the ENTIRE world.

______________________________________
Eman2005
Technical User

 

[WombatSound]

Still some people reading this post think Linux came after Windows as some sort of competition ... Unix was before Windows ... Go back up in this post and follow links I've posted previously ... Educate yourself ... There were operating systems before Windows ... No one is copying Microsoft ... Microsoft is the one who did the copying, then mass marketing ... FUD ... etc ... Get up to speed ...

 

[rtshort]

I agree with you eman6.

If you stop and think about it, who has done more for the world than Bill Gates. Where would we be without the software and innovation that he has accomplished?

Most people don't think about things like this. The world would NOT be the same without Bill Gates and Windows. It's just that simple.

If anyone stops and thinks about it, computers running Windows and Windows Software have been responsible for building a LOT of bridges, roads, buildings, & etc. that was before thought impossible.

I for one applaud Bill Gates. I think that he has changed the world more than anyone. If you stop and "really" think about it, where would the world be without him now? I think that we would be about 20 years behind personally.

Laterz guys. This is just one asshole's opinion.

Rob
Just my $.02.

 

[rtshort]

Yea, before Windows there was UNIX. It is a totally different OS. Unix just works on screens for data input. It is a GOOD system for anyone wanting data input, but poor for someone who wants to enjoy personal computing and the internet.

I'm not saying that Unix is bad, just that it don't have the general interest of the "average" person in mind. Unix does have it's place in the business world, but it's NOT for the general public to use.

Rob
Just my $.02.

 

[ChrisHunt]

Unix just works on screens for data input.

Huh? Have you ever used Unix? Maybe you're trying to say that Unix is/was a command-line language, not a GUI?

Well, that's true, but so was Microsoft's original (well not that original, actually...) MS-DOS. So was everything back in the 70's/early 80's when personal computing was beginning to take off. GUIs only began to come in in the mid-80's, led by the Apple Macintosh - which MS copied to make Windows and Unix vendors copied to make X-Windows. That doesn't make them evil - it's how progress works, the best ideas get shared around and developed. Heck, Apple have only just cottoned onto what a good idea it is to have a second button on the mouse - I wonder where they got that from?

Microsoft sometimes innovate from scratch, sometimes they take an idea (often by buying the company that had it) and develop it, sometimes they just follow the pack. That's life. They still produce some really good products which I use every day (and a few howlers that I wish I never had to).

Where would we be without Bill Gates? Probably in the same place but with somebody else to be rude about on Slashdot. I think the real reason we are where we are is that IBM didn't have a lawyer capable of protecting their intellectual property with regard to the PC. The flourishing market in clone PCs (each with a copy of MS-DOS and/or Windows) is what put a computer in every office and a lot of homes, and incidentally put most of the $$$ in Gatesy's bank account.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[skiflyer]

I'm a mixed shop without question... linux is just right for some things and windows is just right for other things... but I have this to say about both of them...

Windows, releases programs before they're ready, get's a bad rep with the linux crowd, gets slammed for years.

Linux, releases distributions before they're ready, get's a bad rep with the non-geek crowd, gets slammed for years.


Now a days, Windows is a good OS, IIS is a good webserver, AD is a great system, etc. Now a days, there are a ton of great Linux distributions with incredibly easy installations. But, the last few versions of IIS were a joke, Windows ME was a joke, most linux installers were a joke until recently, getting a GUI going on a linux laptop was near impossible until a couple years ago unless you were a geek, whatever that awful email program MS used to ship with is awful, etc. etc....

Oh, and a quick me too post... Windows is too easy, that's one of it's biggest strengths (when beginners want to do novice tasks) and biggest weaknesses (when intermediates want to do advanced tasks)

 

[Netmender]

Where would we be without Microsoft?
Re-inventing the wheel?

*********************
Microsoft Pro's

Management is conditioned and has a tolerance for lots of hours in downtime.

Windows 3.1

Cheap hardware.


*********************
Microsoft Con's

The browser and associated compilers/interpreters have hooks into the kernel.

Standard installation traditionally wide-open, allows the user to remain uninformed until it's too late.

Any script-kiddie can write something disruptive.

Proprietary .doc format

MS re-invents the wheel all the time, with marketing hooks built-in. Word 2003 is still just a word processor.

Each O.S. requires hours of study to re-certify mainly because each revision has a different interface and MS decides to re-invent the terminology. (If you don't have the proper number after your MCSE it doesn't matter what you've accomplished, or administered in beta.)

Race to the bottom: Microsoft has plenty of money to lobby congress for special visas (H1-B and L-1) and build infrastructure in other Countries.
*********************

Out-sourcing and in-sourcing is the best reason to re-invent the wheel. Displaced techies should get downright vengeful, volunteer for, and promote Open Source projects.

After out-sourcing has matured, businesses will start looking for new ways to cut costs and post a profit. It would be cool to see how Oracle, MS, and Cisco re-invent themselves if the preffered software is $400,000.00 less than the renewal fee.

Here's a good start...

http://news.com.com/Massachusetts+to+adopt+open+desktop/2100-1012_3-5845451.html

keywords: destroy microsoft, freebsd, openbsd, mysql, xml, openoffice, XORP, Apache

 

[eman6]

Windows is a product that evolved. It was not born perfect.
Maybe because those who created it were not perfect (not as perfect as those who created Unix, for instance, maybe).
So is MS Office and all its components (Word, Excel, etc).
MS Word for Windows grew up when Word Perfect was an existing market standard. I remember the frustrating short cuts in Word Perfect which did not make any relevance to what we were doing. Microsoft (yes, re-invented the wheel) made Bold= CTRL B, Italics = CTRL I, Underline= CTRL U and so on, in an attempt to approach common sense.
What prevented Word Perfect creators from doing this the first place? Why did people gradually abandon Word Perfect and start using Word?
Similar thing about Excel. It grew up when more than one SpreadSheet application already existed in the market. It's the turtle and rabit race in a way.
The person who invented the first car did not make it like a Ferrari today. Do you attach Ferrari for having stolen an idea and made a better job out of it?

But leave all this aside. We can criticise Microsoft or any other producer of any product, but PLEASE try to keep your criticism objective and not based on your jealousy of somebody's bank account.
There are thaousands of criminals (many of them politicians) in this world who accumulated money in their pockets by damage to humanity, yet they do not receive so much attack. At least Bill Gates built his fortune with useful products, brilliant ideas and innovations and brilliant marketing skills.


______________________________________
Eman2005
Technical User

 

[WombatSound]

eman6: At least Bill Gates built his fortune with useful products, brilliant ideas and innovations and brilliant marketing skills.

Heh, more like imitation ... Microsoft is traditionally behind ... Their innovation consists of their ability to copy the successful market and then usually royally screw it up and then develop their own "standard" so no one else can use their product ... It would be a miracle if Microsoft paid attention to the Internet's RFC compliance ...

Here is an example of innovation:
Apache: runs on Linux, BSD, Mac and Windows
MySQL: runs on Linux, BSD, Mac and Windows
PHP: runs on Linux, BSD, Mac and Windows

IIS: Windows only
MSSQL: Windows only
ASP: Windows only

eman6: Windows is a product that evolved.

... and what product or operating system didn't? You started this thread questioning Linux ... It's already been shown to you that Linux wasn't invented to pursue Windows as you had thought ... Linux was innovated much prior to Windows in many forms ... You also asked if we neede dLinux, and those questions were answered ...

This topic has gone on many tangents, but if you refuse to do the research or try the other side of the fence's innovations then you're no better off than when you started ... Just my example above about the possibilities you have knowing the Open Source Web Standards ... You can code on any system and your code runs on any platform ... They should call it ANSI/PHP ... Heh!

Corel WordPerfect is alive and well ... Just because you chose to stop using WP doesn't mean others have ...

It's great that you hold such high regard for Mr. Bill without even knowing his history ... It would be good for you to know others such as Tim Paterson, Richard Stallman, Brian Behlendorf, Linus Torvalds ... Eric Raymond could be one of your best friends as he describes the success of the models of Microsoft and Linux in his Cathedral and the Bazaar documents ...

 

[BlueWin]

It's funny to emphasize that Linux was before Windows.
OK, I admit I thought Unix was before Windows but Linux was in a way the PC version of Unix. At least it started to show its head after Windows became the standard for millions of people. But if Linux was before Windows it's even a worse argument for you.
Linux is then one of the Rabbits whom the turtle outrun.
Shame shame shame.

By the way, I did not stop using Word Perfect; millions of people stopped, for obvious reasons.
You and others like you can remain jealous and hateful to Bill Gates as much as you want.
I personally do not hate Linux or attack its developpers for whatever reason, even if I have chosen to use Windows.
I appreciate any effort in technology and I believe that technological ideas should be spread and not kept secret, so if anybody learns and makes a better job of the same ideas, then BRAVO.
I remind you of my first sentence in this thread:
"First: Remember, if there was no MS Windows and MS Office in the market, and if it wasn't so popular, Linux would either never have existed, or it would probably be of higher price than MS products."

In other words (and even if Linux was there already but hiding behind IT professionals, or too arogant to give a hand to the folks to enter the computing world) then again, it is definitely thanks to Microsoft that so many people are using computers, while Linux has dragged behind. Microsoft is making millions of that? I don't care. I would care if Microsoft is using this money to kill innocent people like many do with the folks money and yet nobody attacks them or feels jealous of their evil richness the way you attack Bill Gates, despite the damage, and even destruction they cause on earth.

BlueWin
Technical User

 

[grande]

At least Billy puts his money to good use. Check out the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. How many other IT Big Wigs have put that much money into charity?

-------------------------
Just call me Captain Awesome.

 

[BlueWin]

(Just for clarification: Eman6 was accidentally posting under my account)


BlueWin
Technical User

 

[eman6]

Oops, sorry...
I apologize for this. The post under Bluewin starting "It's funny to emphasize..." was mine.
I was on his machine to copy a couple of files and got into this thread without switching user account, by habit.

Sorry for this confusion.
Eman6

______________________________________
Eman2005
Technical User

 

[WombatSound]

It's obvious that your mind was made up before you posted and even after given a vast amount of information you stay true to your original tone ... This is much the norm for people that ask this question so I don't understand why people even ask it ... I wonder where I expressed hatred or jealousy for Mr. Bill? I actually find him quite humorous ... I think the reason I do is because I am "in the know" ... I understand where he's coming from, and I know what's going on in computing today as well as when he made his step into the limelight ... The history is awesome and you would benefit from knowing it ...

I reiterate: It would be good for you to know others such as Tim Paterson, Richard Stallman, Brian Behlendorf, Linus Torvalds ... Eric Raymond could be one of your best friends as he describes the success of the models of Microsoft and Linux in his Cathedral and the Bazaar documents ...

I never used WP or MSWord ... I use a text editor ...

 

[eman6]

WombatSound
Thank you for the information.
If you could kindly favour me some links you suggest where I could read about the gentlemen you mentioned, I would appreciate it.

I know I could search in google, but I'd like to have your recommendation.

Many thanks.



______________________________________
Eman2005
Technical User

 

[WombatSound]

I posted a buncha links 2 Sep 05 4:46 ... Scroll up ... I checked and "Pirates of the Silicon Valley" and "Revolution OS" are available from Amazon.Com ... I didn't know Pirates was available so I ordered it ...