Why I hate dealing with recruiters... 1

[imterpsfan3]

Some may find this story funny... so I thought I would post it.

I have been looking for a job for about a month. I have a job now, but am looking for a new challenge.

I was called by a recruiter looking for a developer. He listed the job qualifications as VB 6.0, ASP, COM, DCOM, HMTL, DHMTL.

I was told I would have a phone screen for this job, so I prepped myself naturally on these technologies.

Lo and behold, the phone interview begins, and I find out that they are looking for a senior-level asp.net/vb.net developer. No questions were asked about the above technologies. I tried to handle myself as well as possible on the ASP.NET questions, but I would rate myself as mid-level, not senior.

I didn't answer all the questions correctly. I think I missed a few. Hence I didn't get the job.

Afterwards I was furious because this recruiter had given me information about a different job!

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a place for mid-level .Net developers. They either want a recent college graduate or someone who is an expert. I'm in between.

Also I find I freeze up in phone interviews. I know how to put an application together in ASP.NET and other technologies, but am not as good at explaining terminology. If that makes sense. I also freeze up in the sense that I know the answer but my brain locks up because of nervousness.

I have never enjoyed technical interviews. Most of the computer jobs I have gotten didn't require an exhaustive technical interview. I got it through networking or moving up the ladder.

It seems if you miss a question they are asking, you're history.

If any of you that are reading this post have been on the other side of the coin, as in being the one doing the interview, how do you feel when you ask technical questions that a person can't answer? Do you feel they are automatically ruled out or what?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer -- Visual Basic 6
Microsoft Certified Applications Developer C# (in the works)

 

[svanels]

Phone interview? Not for me, what is the next step? Interview per e-mail?

Steven

 

[imterpsfan3]

Right, that was funny. I don't like the concept of a phone interview. If they can't interview you in person, that probably says something there. What was even funnier was that the phone interview was supposed to be at 3 and he calls at 3 sounding almost pissed off. He wanted to change it to 4, and I agreed.

Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer -- Visual Basic 6
Microsoft Certified Applications Developer C# (in the works)

 

[mrdenny]

From what I've seen phone interviews are now the norm. Especially with gas prices what they are.

They use phone interviews to screen out the truly dead wood then bring in the people that pass the phone screening.

Last time I was looking for a job every company I interviewed with in person did a phone interview first. I liked it because a couple of companies that I did the phone interview for I decided not to continue the process on. I liked the phone interview because I didn't have to get all dressed up and spend my gas to drive to some place I wasn't interested in. It saved me a ton of time.

I wasn't exactly looking for a low level possition either since I'm currently a Senior Database Administrator.

Denny
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

http://www.mrdenny.com

(Not quite so old any more.)

 

[mrdenny]

BTW: 99% of recruiters suck!!!

Denny
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)

--Anything is possible. All it takes is a little research. (Me)

http://www.mrdenny.com

(Not quite so old any more.)

 

[Thadeus]

Here's my recruiter story:
I have a position as a Senior Analyst using various reporting apps and utilities. I am unhappy with my commute and do not have job satisfaction either. So I apply for a position elsewhere and find a recruiter is involved. I also find out, once they divulge more info, that the commute is not much better.

The company I have applied to has a 3rd party recruiter with an office on-site. I have to interview with the 3rd party off-site first (with another recruiter... that's right I now have 2 recruiters for 1 position).

The interview goes well. I get a second with the hiring manager. That goes very well and they have decided they want me.
Now negotiate a salary right? Wrong.
I get an offer on a Friday evening and I am told that I must provide and answer by Tuesday. I am told by the on-site recruiter that this company doesn't negotiate, so the offer is the best they have and firm. I tell them that I need to think about it because it is lower than I expected and approx. same commute.

After much angst, I decide by Tuesday to turn down the position and keep looking... I figure I may as well shop for what I want while I have a decent, bill-paying job.

The recruiter now tells me I should take some more time to think about it... Also asks me how much would have made me decide "yes". I tell her and she says she doesn't think they will go up any, but that she will try... I tell her I am not asking her to do that, I understand what "no negotiating" means and I am not trying to work her or them with my rejection. She says she understands, but will try anyways...

Wednesday morning my manager resigns from the same frustrations I have been having (she's not bitter, just bummed - we had both hoped for more satisfaction).
Her position is offered to me with a raise. I tell them about my other situation (no details), and they are willing to wait for a few days for me to decide since my manager is staying on for a few weeks.

The recruiter is now calling me and emailing to see if I have changed my mind... nothing new from them, they just seem to think I'll reconsider. I tell them about my manager resigning and the raise and they start telling me about why I don't want to work for my present company.

I get asked again (by the on-site rec) how much $ would have been enough. I tell them again and I am told they will talk to the hiring manager to see if there is budget... At this point I ask, "I thought they don't negotiate?" Well... ahh... maybe in this situation...

OK! recruiters listen up. Don't feed me a line. I'm happy to work within your framework, just don't treat me like an idiot. You'll either negotiate on my behalf or you won't. You must have an answer by X-day or it's flexible. Just shoot straight and nobody will get hurt

~Thadeus

 

[aquias]

Personal opinion, and I have met some that don't fall into this category, but most recruiters are con artist little so and so's...

However, it seems that the worst one in this area also happens to be the best...you try and figure it out because I cannot

 

[LFI]

The newsletter from "Ask The Headhunter" (

http://www.asktheheadhunter.com)

provides some great stories about HR and recruiter practices. I am fortunate in that I haven't had to be looking for a job for a long time, but I read this newsletter whenever it arrives (weekly) and get a lot from it!

The stories that have been posted (above) would qualify as newletter fodder!!

--Dave

 

[Dollie]

I work with two recruiters. They can only work with the information that the client provides and nothing else. No assumptions can be made.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client gets the 2:00 and 2:30 phone interviews messed up and asks the wrong questions of each.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client is not detailed enough about job requirements and the recruiter brings in people that the client finds non-satisfactory.

If the client is in ABC city and the candidate is in DEF city 2000 miles away and wants to relocate, why wouldn't a phone interview be appropriate?

These two people are top-of-the-line recruiters, and I see them get frustrated with candidates who demand answers they can't provide, who have lied on their resume and don't have the skills they claim, who demand pay rates that no one in the US is willing to pay, and those who refuse to do interviews without having a contract already in place for their employment...etc etc etc.

I've also noticed that quite often, someone working for a firm contracted to do work for a client is immediately identified as a recruiter instead of a potential employer. Before we hired the recruiters, our sales reps handled it. With the huge number of people claiming to be IT professionals (compared to the number of people who actually *are* IT professionals), you almost need someone to do nothing but screen candidates.

In IT world, most of the streets go two ways. It'd be nice if people didn't create one-way signs just because it suits them. Sorry if my hackles got up, but to see an entire group of people beaten up kinda gets my goat.

 

[Thadeus]

Dollie,
you are the eighth post on this topic... Hardly an "entire group" in TT-terms.

I didn't make a one-way sign... I presented an anecdote from my personal experience.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client gets the 2:00 and 2:30 phone interviews messed up and asks the wrong questions of each.

Yes, it is partly their fault. If they are acting as an intermediary (and being paid for it) then they have a responsibility to prep the client just like they prep the recruit. This is their profession. They should do it well.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client is not detailed enough about job requirements and the recruiter brings in people that the client finds non-satisfactory.

It absolutely is the recruiter's job to get the details... Like saying a car salesperson can say, "well I know a car has 4 wheels, but the fact-sheet claims this one only has 3. I guess the fact-sheet is good enough for me" Recruiters need to do the research because I can't. That's what they do.

As far as phone interviews... I have no problem with them. Where I do start to have problems is when the phone interview consists of 10 questions and then when you finally meet face to face, they ask only the same 10 questions.... Now they're just wasting my time.
BTW, I have been hired for a full-time 75K position with only one interview conducted over the phone. A few years later same thing with a different position. I have no problem with the phone interview if it makes sense.

The anecdote I offered is with one recruiting firm. I don't have a blanket big enough to encompass all firms. I wasn't trying to.

And if you weren't referring to me, then please don't post your generalization complaining that people generalize.

~Thadeus

 

[aquias]

I'm seconding Thadeus on this one. What is a recruiter's job? To find/prep/and assist me in other general ways to gain (insert job here).

If I lie on my resume or over state my skills, that's my fault. And I won't get any jobs that people are setting me up for on my interview. However, if the recruiter is good...they'll already know I'm lieing.

I stand by my above statement, they are bleedin' con artist. But, the best in the area sits down with any potential people they work with and hammers them with a barrage of technical questions to gauge their skills. So THEY (recruiters) don't look like idiots.

As for miscommunications and the like. They happen, yes, it's inevitable. But that falls back on the recruiter. If I schedule a technician to come in and take down a primary server and he shows up half an hour early/late. Who answers for it? Me, I have to explain what happened and what I'm doing to ensure it doesn't happen again.

As for my above statement on them being con artists. Personal experience. I've watched recruiters talk people into jobs they weren't qualified for and seen recruiters gouge companies on their "finding" fee's (Try to the tune of 35% of 50,000).

Do they work? Yes, I find almost ALL of my jobs through them. But that doesn't mean I always like the way they do business.

 

[Paul4Meep]

Dollie, I'm right with you in the general point of your post. It is never fair to generalize. True, some recruiters (maybe even a lot) could be devious con-artists, but I'm sure many are very honest. Thing is, though, the original post in this thread was about a specific recruiter.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client gets the 2:00 and 2:30 phone interviews messed up and asks the wrong questions of each.

It's not the fault of the recruiter if the client is not detailed enough about job requirements and the recruiter brings in people that the client finds non-satisfactory.

That isn't what imterpsfan3 was saying happened. The recruiter, in this scenario, got the jobs mixed up and told imterpsfan3 all the details of a different job when he needed to be prepared for the phone interview. That's not exactly very professional. I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but I can't imagine how you'd make a mistake like that. Maybe if both the jobs were the same company, but a different department, or something.

Sounds like the two recruiters you know are the honest type. That is great. Trust me, I don't think anybody meant to say all the blame always belongs to any one side. When it comes to a recruiter, that means there are three parties. I am sure there are equal numbers of stories of all three of those screwing up royally.

One thing I have to say, recruiters must sometimes have a hard job. They don't know the people who come to them for help in finding a job. They just have to assume they told the truth about their qualifications and didn't embellish the resume with good looking lies. I wonder if any recruiters have any really interesting horror stories. Imagine a person listing all these qualities on their resume, then coming for a job interview in a clown suit.

Thanks for your input, Dollie, and for coming to the defense of the good recruiters out there.

 

[imterpsfan3]

I wasn't blaming the recruiter for the mix up on the timing of the interview. I'm blaming the recruiter for giving me the requirements for the wrong job and putting me in an embarrassing and compromising position. It's like getting a job description for a carpenter and they are really looking for a plumber.

When I initially talked to the recruiter on the phone he asked me if I had experience with ADO, Visual Basic, etc. He acted as if he knew nothing about the technologies at all. I don't feel a technical recruiter needs to know the nuts and bolts of ActiveX Data Objects but at least know that it has something to do with COM data access. When I explained to him what ADO was he sort of laughed and said "I don't know what ADO is...ha ha ha".

I notice a lot that these recruiters are basically salespeople. Not all, but too many.

On the subject of phone screens, I agree a phone interview is appropriate if the job is out of reach of a normal commute. However, I don't think you can determine if someone is a good programmer based on 5-10 questions. I may know that boxing is converting a value type to an object type, but does that make me a good programmer?

Sorry if this post has caused a firestorm.

Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer -- Visual Basic 6
Microsoft Certified Applications Developer C# (in the works)

 

[Paul4Meep]

I just went back and re-read your original post. I suffer from this too:

I also freeze up in the sense that I know the answer but my brain locks up because of nervousness.

Sometimes stuff like this happens to me. I'll often no the answer to something, but freeze up and forget. Or, I just cannot think. One of my biggest problems is I'll often have about five ways to phrase something bouncing around in my heda (all of which are fine), but I can't decide which to use, so a jumbled messy combination comes out. Luckily, all of the problems I have aren't too bad and don't really happen to often.

I don't really think you "started a firestorm." You were just telling us a story of something that was majorly frustrating. You sure as heck have a right to be mad in a situation like that. Who wouldn't be? Good luck to you in avoiding something like that in the future. I hope you never run into that BS again.

 

[Paul4Meep]

You know, for somebody who is so perfectionistic about my own writing, you'd think I'd stop being so lazy on message boards. LOL. I meant to say "I'll often know...." not "I'll often no..." I also don't have a heda.

 

[Thadeus]

re: getting hit with a technical question

When I interviewed for my present position (no 3rd party recruiter) I was left in a room with the employee whose position I would be taking. (He was moving up, so there were no ill-feelings) He asked me if I knew the DECODE function in SQL. I had been querying DBs for about 10 years at that point and had never come across DECODE. So I asked him to tell me it's purpose and as he started to explain it to me, I was able to realize that it was something of a CASE or IF-THEN type of function... I pulled an example out of my briefcase where I had utilized similar code and he was satisfied that I would be able to use the function if needed.

I always carry some coding examples with me anyways, but since that event, I will never be caught without a little something to show I'm not one of those resume-boasters.

~Thadeus

 

[imterpsfan3]

That's a good idea Thadeus. What would you think of as a programmer bringing a laptop to an in person interview and actually showing them a sample application or database you had created, or is that something that is just not done? Or create a web site that had sample applications you had created that they could visit if they have any doubts about your ability to create an application?

Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer -- Visual Basic 6
Microsoft Certified Applications Developer C# (in the works)

 

[Dollie]

Although I was the 8th post on this thread, this is not the only thread where I've seen recruiters, er, well, (I don't want to use the wrong word here), not highly recommended, let's say.

More and more companies are using third parties to find people. If the recruiters are having a hard time weeding out candidates, imagine what a Major Company$ would go through with candidates.

I've seen thousands of resumes go into our database. Everything from accountants who work "in the rears" (in arrears) to programmers who have been "working with Winders 2000 for 20 years", and people who attended the UoP online 10 years ago. The amount of BS on any single resume is astounding. I don't know how they can call on some candidates and not end up a psychotic mess.

I understand that you're frustrated with a specific recruiter, imterpsfan3 and I'm sorry that you had the experience. I wish there were a sure-fire way to weed out the good from the bad recruiters. I could fire off a thousand suggestions, but they may not apply to your situation.

I guess next time I respond to a thread I should specify examples of what could possibly happen as "Examples:" instead of just rattling off. I've misspoken once this week in a different thread. I gotta remember that sarcasm and subconscious thoughts aren't read easily online. Hopefully next week goes better!

And this was too hard to resist:

Imagine a person listing all these qualities on their resume, then coming for a job interview in a clown suit.

How about someone showing up in a purple disco shirt, plaid jacket, shiny green pants and hair that hadn't been washed in recent memory? That was one to remember...

 

[Paul4Meep]

How about someone showing up in a purple disco shirt, plaid jacket, shiny green pants and hair that hadn't been washed in recent memory? That was one to remember...

Oh my gosh! Are you telling me this actually happened to you?! LOL! Wow! I was just making mine up.

 

[aquias]

So, you offered him the job then