Why do some Americanisms irritate people? 9

[1DMF]

Oh dear - you seem to have decided that what the film is an accurate historical document.

No i watched a documentary that explained all this prior to then showing Zulu Dawn!

So I am sorry if the documentary doesn't agree with you.

I even checked the 'whitehouse' statement with my sister's boyfriend who confirmed this is the case, his exact words were 'something like that'. He's just finished a political masters degree and is about to take his PHD in political media / science, so I have to assume he knows what he is talking about!

I shall now bow out of this thread as I have no desire to continue to bang heads with your Mike, you clearly beleive something diferrent to many others, including friends and faimily and other Americans, so one has to assume it is a matter of interpretation, and agree to disagree.

Interesting enough I shall finish with something which I found rather amusing while investigating all this as I was suprised to find out about the 1812 war, which is facinating, but if you Google 'what war has USA won' there are some mind boggling answers, none so funny as many replying, 'The American Civil War'.

Would you consider England as having won the English civil war



"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you."

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[IPGuru]

1) we wernt talking WWII as a whole
I cited the Battle of Britain as a vicotry because the Germans decided to stop fighting that particular battle - not the whole war.

2) My Grandfather was not in the Home Guard, he was in the Army proper (Actually serving in Anti Aircraft). when the invasion was imminent every available man was patrolling the beaches most had virtualy nothing to defend themselves (others had less).

Would you consider England as having won the English civil war lol

Well half of us did

The question I prefer to ask is how many wars have the USA won without British Involvement? (& roll up laughing when I get the answer 'The war of Independence')



I do not Have A.D.D. im just easily, Hey look a Squirrel!

 

[KenCunningham]

It is quite clear that some people's interpretation of 'victory' is not mine.

You have already accepted that perhaps your history teacher's teaching skills weren't exactly top-notch re the Boer War, but really, is there any need to perpetuate such arrant nonsense about other matters in the remainder of the thread? He or she clearly has much to answer for.

I suggest you go back to your books or the internet and read about what actually happened in all of these instances, rather than take the word of someone with a masters degree in 'politics', whatever that might be.

The internet - allowing those who don't know what they're talking about to have their say.

 

[strongm]

>so I have to assume he knows what he is talking about!

Sadly he is mistaken. This is an urban myth. The Whitehouse was being painted white well before the War of 1812 (earliest reference appears to be 1798). And the story is also is categorically denied by the Office of the Whitehouse Curator.

>So I am sorry if the documentary doesn't agree with you

Given your track record in misunderstanding documentaries ... I'll just repeat, there is no contemporary evidence that I am aware of that the Zulus "saluted the brave defenders". It makes nice story though.

>Nazi Germany NEVER surrendered

Despite the picture of the actual original instrument of surrender that I linked earlier? The one signed by Alfred Jodl, a Nazi. There was a later document as well, Act of Military Surrender, also signed by Nazis (Keitel, Stumff and Friedeberg). I'm forced to say, your ability to misunderstand (or deny) facts is increasingly astounding.

 

[SamBones]

I shall now bow out of this thread as I have no desire to continue to bang heads with your Mike, ...

Please don't surrender now, I'm really enjoying this thread!

 

[N1GHTEYES]

Me too.

Tony

p.s. I think his sky may be.. hmmm... mauve. Yes, mauve.

 

[1DMF]

I shall surrender and hope Mike is merciful, that way I can call it a victory ;-)

I am suprised that my sister's boyfriend would confirm this so called urban myth regarding the white house as well as the ubundance of material that can be found on the internet that also states this.

But if the US government or whitehouse officals say it isn't true then that must be the case ;-)

I appologise for spouting internet propaganda and having clarified it with a political expert. (Though I also stugle to actually understand what it is he has a masters degree in or about to do a PHD in!)

One last point I will make regarding....

Despite the picture of the actual original instrument of surrender that I linked earlier? The one signed by Alfred Jodl, a Nazi. There was a later document as well, Act of Military Surrender, also signed by Nazis (Keitel, Stumff and Friedeberg). I'm forced to say, your ability to misunderstand (or deny) facts is increasingly astounding.

I think you will find that any agreement entered into under duress is not legally binding!

OK a flippant, tongue in cheek remark, but it highlights the point I was trying to make regarding the difference between surrender/defeat/victory.

The term 'hollow victory' is also an example of that sentiment.

Rouke's Drift was far from victorious and Nazi surrender was far from by choice or provided willingly, personally I find it an insult to all who died in WWII (soldier or civilian), to think that it was simply a matter of the Nazi's surrendering. Winston Churchill made it quite clear what was wanted and that nothing but total 'defeat' would be acceptable

To achieve the extirpation of Nazi tyranny there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go.

Of couse it can be argued regarding definitions of capitulation or armistice but as I understand things, an unconditional surrender is usually only given when you have been totally defeated! of course YMMV!





"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you."

"If a shortcut was meant to be easy, it wouldn't be a shortcut, it would be the way!"

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[SantaMufasa]

of course YMMV!

I tend to avoid use of obscure acronyms in order to avoid any misinterpretation. I had to look up YMMV on acronymfinder.com. I presume that you meant Your Mileage May Vary, but it also listed You Make Me Vomit, which I know you didn't intend. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel.

 

[KenCunningham]

I find your use of the phrase 'under duress' charming, imagining the nasty Allies holding Jodl's arm up his back until he signed the document. Naughty Allies, play nicely!

Presumably that's the same duress as the Nazi 'victories' (there is no other word except perhaps 'occupation') occasioned in Poland, The Netherlands, Belgium and France? War is all about duress after all.

I'm also charmed by your faith that a politics student should know the details of the White House external decorative arrangements, rather than what goes on inside.

The internet - allowing those who don't know what they're talking about to have their say.

 

[BadBigBen]

too clear a few misconceptions up:

The surrender signed by "Generaladmiral Hans-Georg von Friedeburg", on the 4th of May, 1945, was only an unconditional surrender of the forces in the northwest theater, those that had fought Field-marshal Montgomery...

Three days later, on the 7th of May, 1945, "Generaloberst Alfred Jodl" signed the unconditional surrender of/for the whole German forces (land, sea, and air)...

On the 25th of January, 1955, the "Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union" declared the end of the war with Germany...

Interesting side note, in Norway, some 400.000 German Soldiers where not decommissioned nor where they stripped of their weapons, while under English command... it was one of Churchill's after war plans to deal with the Soviets, called Operation Unthinkable...

Another side note, Germany's occupation, by the Allied Forces, ended 1990 with the unification of East & West Germany...


and no, I wont (will not) touch the Boer or the Indepence conflicts... ;-) (yet)...




Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"

 

[strongm]

>too clear a few misconceptions up:

There were no minconceptions until you raised this ... to clear things up further, I specifically never mentioned or referenced the 4th May document, as it was not a total surrender of Nazi Germany, which is specifically what what we were talking about. Friedeburg was, however, involved in signing the Act of Military Surrender (as I stated) on 8th May because the Soviets were not entirely happy with the 7th May document for a number of reasons.

>I am suprised that my sister's boyfriend would confirm this so called urban myth

Except he didn't. In your own words he said said it was "something like that" - which to a discerning reader seems to be along the lines "yes, I heard a story similar to that somewhere as well. No idea whether it is accurate or true though"

>as well as the ubundance of material that can be found on the internet that also states this

That's the thing about urban legends. So you have to check your facts. And it is a verifiable fact that the White House was being painted or whitewashed years before the incident in question (and before you move on to the next related myth, it was also being referred to as the White House before this point as well, although not regularly)

>Nazi surrender was far from by choice or provided willingly .... 'hollow victory'

This is just an example of your woolly thinking. Earlier on, for example, you tried to argued that if someone just decides to stop fighting you then you have not won a victory (as, for example, your claims about the British and the American War of Independence), and now (well, much earlier actually, but not quite so obviously as now) you are seem to be arguing that if someone is forced to stop fighting you then that is not a victory either.

>as I understand things, an unconditional surrender is usually only given when you have been totally defeated

Japan unconditionally surrendered to end WWII. They had not been totally defeated at that point. Allied forces weren't even on Japanese home territory (the Russian invasion of Manchuria notwithstanding). Another example: The unconditional surrender of Fort Donelson (famous since it is more or less where the term unconditional surrender first arises) during the American Civil War. The Confederates holding the fort had not been totally defeated - indeed in simple numerical terms they had in fact inflicted more deaths and injuries upon the Union than the Union had upon them.

 

[djj55]

It is a shame that we cannot split this thread into different parts, as each part is interesting, but the resent posts have not been directly related to the title. As I stated, they are interesting though and it would be nice to have a separate title.

djj
The Lord is my shepherd (Psalm 23) - I need someone to lead me!

 

[1DMF]

Well in my wolly mind I consider being hung as a war criminal a defeat, as well as having two nuclear boms dropped on my country with the threat of more also a defeat, but clearly your fluffy mind does not ;-)

You're right DJJ55, - and as my position is immutable, I shall separate myself... feel the

"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you."

"If a shortcut was meant to be easy, it wouldn't be a shortcut, it would be the way!"

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[IPGuru]

Regarding the Title "Why do some Americanisms annoy Some People"
the people they annoy are usually English. In my case the reason they Annoy is because it is our language & just about the only thing we have left. I don't want the Americans or anyone else taking that as well :-(

Oh and a 'fanny' is not the buttocks! you literally have everything arse about face ;-)

I do not Have A.D.D. im just easily, Hey look a Squirrel!

 

[1DMF]

"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you."

"If a shortcut was meant to be easy, it wouldn't be a shortcut, it would be the way!"

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[hjgoldstein]

==>Oh and a 'fanny' is not the buttocks!

As in the famous quote from, it is believed, Johnnie Craddock: "I hope all your doughnuts turn out like Fanny's."

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[SamBones]

So do Britts all snicker and nudge each other when someone speaks of Franny Brice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Brice

 

[1DMF]

here's one for our American friends, is the translation of the British rapper/artist "Tinchy Stryder" = "Small Pants" ?

"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you."

"If a shortcut was meant to be easy, it wouldn't be a shortcut, it would be the way!"

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[IPGuru]

woo ho my first * in this forum
Im not sure if it was for my observation regarding the subject of for my comments on 'fanny' but to be honest I don't care

I do not Have A.D.D. im just easily, Hey look a Squirrel!

 

[N1GHTEYES]

So do Britts all snicker and nudge each other when someone speaks of Fanny Brice?

No, but my wife, who is American, certainly got some funny looks when she casually mentioned doing her "fanny exercises".

On another occasion, many, many years ago, a friend of hers was in hospital and wanted to get a few token thank-you presents for the hospital staff. She asked my wife if she would pop down to the hospital's chemist shop, which also sold trinkets etc, to get some simple items for the nurses, and "some brightly coloured rubbers for the chaps".

Tony