Who is the owner? 7

[IonelBurtan]

I think that this relatively new forum is very valuable. One thing came into my mind, and I want to ask you about.
{First you have to know I am from Romania where there are very few laws on IT side - no problem if don't know where is at s-)}

Two year ago I was working at a textile factory as economist at selling department. Because I had a lot of time every day I went to the neighbouring department called "Production follow-up", and worked/toyed on their computer. However I observed that they need a program for what they were doing so in 2 month time I made a program in Foxpro 2.6 licenced to them.

The problem came up when I was to leave the firm one month later, they asked me to finish the program and leave them a version.(I didn't received any compensation for my work). I didn't agree and said it was my voluntary work.They said it was on their computer using their software. But they somehow had forced me to leave them the programm. However I had put inside a time bomb and the program was down in two month after my leaving.

WHAT IS ETHIC AND WHAT IS NOT IN THIS STORY?

s-)

Blessed is he who in the name of justice and goodwill, sheperds the weak through the valley of darkness...

http://www20.brinkster.com/ionelb

 

[edfair]

As I see it:
You were being paid for some work. the fact that you did some computer programming during that time is immaterial.

If the company forced you to complete the program without compensation they were wrong. If they were still paying you for your other services, then it is within their right.

If there was some legitimate reason for needing a time bomb embedded, you are OK. If there wasn't a legitimate need you have done something that isn't OK. And if the latter, you will probably have a permanent stain on your job history. Under the laws of many countries you might be sued for your actions.

Ed Fair
efair@atlnet.com

Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply.

Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[IonelBurtan]

-edfair

Please define "legitimate reason"(Examples)
Were they supposed to keep a program for what they do not have any copyright or legal proof?
Because I do know how it is in other countries but I think you cannot use the programs others make just by copying them on your hard drive.

"If they were still paying you for your other services, then it is within their right." - not quite fair because here the revenues of a programmer are far larger then the ones of an economist.

I think what I have done to them was pretty drastic but I HATE when people are doing this stuff, make you feel cheated somehow. Because what I started as pure amusement has turned against me in this strange way.

I don't think this is a "permanent stain on your job history" rather some greenhorn teaching to learn someone not to do something for free even if you know how to do it, to avoid to be taken for a fool later.
I remeber not one from mgmt. has said even a good word for that program on the contrary I had had many quarels over this.

Now I am a full programmer since one year and I wouldn't do something like this, for the very simple reason I get paid for exactly what I am doing and I am happy and I respect my company and the CEOs.They are fine and very ethic people.

so, the things are more straight now...
s-)

Blessed is he who in the name of justice and goodwill, sheperds the weak through the valley of darkness...

http://www20.brinkster.com/ionelb

 

[MasterRacker]

I don't know about Romania but in most places part of the standard employment agreement states that anything developed by an employee using company time and company owned resources is the property of the company. This has stood up in U.S. courts. In many cases, inventions made using company resources are owned by the company. It doesn't matter whether or not the invention has anything at all to do with the employees job function.

As to the time bomb, I can't think of any legitimate reason for it. If you created something that the company is using to perform a business function, and then sabotaged it, you have essentially sabotaged the business. I would think you would be legally liable for damages. Again, I know nothing of Romanian law and could be completely wrong in this specific case.
Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[gunthnp]

this is the heart of IP rights you worte it, if any of it was done on your own time you at lest should be paid for at lest that. and a time bomd is a good way to make sure they want the new version with feature like it working. I think what you did was a little ruff but I know a lot of people who would do the same thing So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[sleew]

And again,knowledge is not important#$%&.Folowing the low
BurtanI you are very very wrong, but I understand you.
I have similar situation.I'm your neighbour little bit west,
but still in your region.Yes,i know,i must agree with you in some way because Balkan is Balkan and only two of us can understand it.I'm working whole months for as much money
as i would get in e.g. America in 1 hour!TO ALL PEOPLE WHO READ THIS: here on Balkan knowledge does not matter,my sister is selling socks an t-shirts on market and earns 3 times more than i do!!!!!!!What do i do?Full support for all
Microsoft products(all Windowsies,exchange 5.5,2000,proxie 2.0,office 97,2000,IIS,Wan and lan administration and technical support, Compaq-intel products:deskpro-top,servers,storage under w2000s, server farms;my clients are National bank(!),Telekom-mobile(!),Zepter,biggest cure fabric.I'm responsable for computer that use third most important person in my country,gouverner of National bank.
I payed thousand of dollars for MCSE and i still did not payed of that,not even close and there is already new course(of course my company payes from now on).Here on Balkan
as more school you have u get less money,just dont bother with university, trade trade trade, socks pencers milk
cigars t-shirts.Bio-chemistry?Nuclear physic?New hardware theories?YOU ARE DEAD!






Sleew
Compaq & Microsoft TS
sleew@infosky.net

 

[pivan]

Well....I would sell the socks and t-sheets...less stress more money...chance to meet and flirt with beautiful Balkan women.

Seriously...I agree with gunthnp. Sometimes you just have to fight back. If you weren't paid, its your code...wanna put at time bomb in it. I see it as shareware with a or an eval copy that expires after 30 days. Pretty simple to me!!

And we have the same thing working here in the US as sleew has in the Balkans. Look at real estate and mortgage brokers here in the US. Low barrier to entry, high salary returns if you can put up with the tedium.

IMHO we all worry to much about "Business Ethics"... how nieve. The first rule in business is that there are no ethics.

regards,
pivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[steveaubrey]

Pivan,

The problem with inventing rules after the fact is that there's no stopping point. *Now* BurtanI might be able to call it shareware, but that's not what the client understood or expected when they got the software.

To stretch a point, it would really bother me if someone decided now that I should have been aborted before I was born. Abortion is legal, right? We're just administering it a little late -- after the fact of birth.

I'm not trying to start a flame war on abortion. I just think you can't make up rules after the event is over.

If BurtanI had explained or licensed his software as an evaluation copy, or as shareware, then I agree completely with it expiring after a certain time period. But that's not what happened.

What happened is not fair, but I don't remember reading anywhere that life is fair.

Steve

 

[MasterRacker]

Exactly. Life is NOT fair. Whether or not the code developed had anything at all to do with BurtainI's job description is immaterial. If it was developed using company owned resources, it is owned by the company. Period.

If you want to develop something to sell, you MUST be very careful to develop it on your own time and only using your own resources.
Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[pivan]

Hey Guys...Fair works both ways.

If they would have paid for services rendered I doubt if there would have been a problem. They didn't...software expired...to bad...Life ain't fair.

Business...at least the way I have been taught...allows you to make up the rules at ANY point in time.

Guys ..remember..in business there are no "Null Pointer Exceptions". Things are never black and right. If they are, there is usually something going on that you don't understand. There is no right or wrong...just the bottem line. Disagree?? Ask your CEO.

Geez...and here I am supporting capitalism...and I, a devout Marxist from the 60's.


Regards and Respect to All,
pvian

In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[steveaubrey]

Pivan,

This isn't a court of law, but some of the processes of the court would come in handy right now.

I don't know if we have all the pertinent facts about the situation.

BurtanI said "Because I had a lot of time every day I went to the neighbouring department called "Production follow-up", and worked/toyed on their computer.". It sounds like he did the programming during work hours. He *was* paid for the work he did. Probably not at programmer's wages, but still compensated.

And then "But they somehow had forced me to leave them the programm. However I had put inside a time bomb and the program was down in two month after my leaving.". Something sounds untold here. They forced him to leave the program, but he still was able to booby-trap it? This was an escalating situation, not a single, simple event.

And I disagree with your contention that you can make up rules any time, that all that matters is the bottom line. I don't want to argue for a touchy-feely warm-and-fuzzy worldview - there's evil out there, and meanness, and stupidity. But there has to be trust, and honesty, and integrity. I don't need to ask my CEO. I don't even have to ask my boss, or my wife. I know how I want to be treated, so I know how I have to treat others. And no, I won't always be treated fairly. But I'm not going to return evil for good. That doesn't make sense in the short run or the long run.

To wrangle this back around on-topic, I think that BurtanI could have helped his situation immensely by not booby-trapping his program. He burned a bridge (at the very least). What he could have done is to stated his case, left the (working) program at the company, and then improved it after he left. Then comes the opportunity to show his old company what they could have -- if they want to pay for it.

Capitalism at its finest -- he would be taking a risk by writing the new program without assurance of return. But then he would be the sole owner of the new program (assuming it was all new code), and the old company would have no claims to it. Their only incentive to him would be money.

I would see that as a much better end-game than the way it turned out. And all by working within the existing rules.

Steve

 

[IonelBurtan]

Steve,
You are quite right about the latest possibility.
I had had access to the program after I have quareled with the CEOs is due to the fact that the CEOs didn't have the slightest ideea about IT, its value ans so on.

Thank you all, s-)

Blessed is he who in the name of justice and goodwill, sheperds the weak through the valley of darkness...

http://www20.brinkster.com/ionelb

 

[IonelBurtan]

-MasterRacker

How about the patents for inventors. They are inventing something inside a firm(usually).

This means that after they have hardworked for some time they should just go home and rest, without any compensation. How they succeed in selling their inventions further if this is property of the firm?

Just curious.

And of course, business rules are a little relative when it comes of oposite interests. So everyone must defend his effort. That was the way I thought about it at that time, now I will do much better.

Thanks, s-)

Blessed is he who in the name of justice and goodwill, sheperds the weak through the valley of darkness...

http://www20.brinkster.com/ionelb

 

[MasterRacker]

I know many engineers who have patents. The patents are for products developed for the companies they worked for. They were paid a salary for developing products. Some of them happened to be patentable. The inventor gets his name on the patent, but the company owns the product and all rights to further developing and marketing it. Pretty standard. Programming and engineering are all about developing new products. It's the nature of the work. Anything developed on the job is the property of the employer.

A specific example is a database for tracking sports leagues I wrote for a company. I chose not to create a contract in advance giving my lasting rights to the code, therefore they own the program. Even though I wrote it, I have no rights to sell it to anyone else. It's their property and theirs alone.

If you want to get rich off an invention, you need to be very careful to invent it on your own time using none of your employers resources.




Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....