Where do I go from here? 5

[crotalus1]

Hi, I recently discovered Tek-Tips and am in need of a suggestion or two.

I got into computers in the 80's courtesy of the USN, where I took a course in computing and as a reward for completing the class got a Kaypro Computer with a green monitor, two 5" floppies and Wordstar. A degree of sorts in batch file programming.

Since then I've stayed in the field and have worked mainly in the tracking of heavy construction and manufacturing jobs. The majority of my work has consisted of db3+... later versions and then MS Access.

I've learned VB along the way and can build tracking databases that generate just about anything the users have desired, along with graphs, trends, etc. I am very good at this.

Currently, I am a 48 year old MWM (Middle Aged White Male) who is going to get caught up in some serious downsizing.

I have no degree in MIS, computer science, or any other related field. I have no formal education past high school and the various credits I recieved while in the service - are for the most part mechanical engineering related.

Basically, I have a lot of knowledge and enjoy the field but I have nothing substantial to back it up with on the educational side of things.

I do have substantial cash reserves to take a couple years worth of classes for a degree of some sort if I need to.

I have sent out a number of resumes to employers in like fields, but the lack of anything on paper from an accredited university or school of higher learning seems to be a sticking point.

I am wondering if any of you have any suggestions as to where I might proceed from here. Bite the bullet and get the piece of paper, look in another industry, market myself in another light?

I'm kind of stuck........

 

[SGTRawlins]

48! fliipin heck, time to retire i think! haha

After a post i made whie back it would seem that the industry is devide! one half believing in the vaule certification and others believe that solid experience is the key,

I would construct a CV, where those "cerified" members of society would usualy state a long list of fancy letter (MCSE, MS-yada yada yada) i would just list your skills, tasks you have performed in projects over the years, perhaps even create a portfolio.

If you have been in the industry for this ammount of time i would image your list of contacts and people that owo you favourse is fairly extensive,

Have a chat with a few people, pass you CV and portfolio arround a bit, i just did the same, my experience is a mere pittence in comparison to yours but just landed my self a cuchey managment job.

Let me know if you need some more advice old man.

Cheers bud, Robo

 

[DTSMAN]

School Schmool..As SGTRawlins said half the industry prefers experience and the other half want a paper trail. Could go either way for you. I would also have to reccomend networking through any and all contacts you may have in your related field. You will have to decide on the school part. Don't let someone on this forum convince you one way or the other on school. Use your best judgement on that.

 

[CajunCenturion]

School Schmool

???

I have sent out a number of resumes to employers in like fields, but the lack of anything on paper from an accredited university or school of higher learning seems to be a sticking point.

Now that doesn't sound like anyone on this forum trying to convince you one way or the other on school. But I think there certainly is a message there.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[KenCunningham]

Given that you aren't too concerned about cash during your (enforced) sabbatical, would it be worth trying to start your own consultancy and/or ad-hoc development company? I'm 47½, and I know that's the way I'd go if I was suddenly offloaded. Whether it works or not is up to you and your contacts, but good luck.

 

[xmsre]

A degree is important, more as a ticket punch than anything else. My own degree is a dual major psychology/economics, hardly related to the field. Some basic ceritification, in your case MCSD or MCSE would be nice for those companies that like a paper trail. Once you punch all the right tickets to get in the door, it comes down to experience. A CV or a portfolio listing your skills, tasks, and accomplishments is an excellent idea.

The independent contracting route can work, but you'll need some cash to carry yourself along while you start the business. Pay cycles in consulting can be long, it'll probably be lean as you ramp up, etc.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

John

 

[willir]

crotalus1

Ain't life grand? Just when you want to start coasting a little, somebody throws a spanner into the works.

Basically, you have 15 years of work ahead of you, and this is a great time to reflect where you want to be 15 years from now.

Make a plan. The plan should include how much money you want to have tucked away for retirement, where do you want to live, and personal growth (such as what would make you happy). It can also include your professional plan but perhaps you should not substitute happiness for ambition.

Downsizing is a tough process, but in the end, more than likely, you will be further ahead.

Comments made about certification are sound. Some employers, especially, perhaps the institutions and government, and others value experience. The very least this says is that you should not be pessimistic that you lack a formal education.

I've learned VB along the way and can build tracking databases that generate just about anything the users have desired, along with graphs, trends, etc. I am very good at this.

... Says oodles. You are confident. But more than this, you know at least three programming languages (scripting, dbase and VB). Many programmers find it relatively easy to learn yet another language.

Rather than going on to a 2 to 4 year sabbatical to get your formal education, you may want to go the 2 week course route and focus on a new language you feel will be popular. (Crapshoot on which programming language will be hot, but a few stand out.)

Why not take the 2 or 4 year formal education route? Much of the stuff covered in the degree programs is rather basic -- perhaps important to inexperienced, younger students who are still trying to find themselves and develop good work habits. At your age, you have already developed a lot of transferable skills, and just may need to add another technical skill to your quiver. Another reason is that when you finish a formal program, most of the jobs tend to be entry level. For example, it would be unlikely to finish a 4 year degree course and expect to be hired as a senior programmer or project manager.

You also have the opportunity to do consulting and do work on consignment. Some of the members of this forum are consultants or have their own business. The work is tough, and the money may be meager. But if you are comfortable, your long term plan may not require you to make a zillion dollars within the next 15 years. Here is a link to a private members forum run by the entrepreneurs...

http://www.tek-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?spid=1121&newpid=1121

But be warned. The entrepreneurial road is not for everyone. It requries far more than just progrmaming skills. It does require a certain investment which could returns tremendous rewards, or ruin, or soemthing in between. Some community colleges may offer a course on this type of thing.

I guess you have already thought about the management route.

You may also get luckily, and find a like job to what you do now.

Lastly, there are consulting services that test and offer advice.

In review...
- make a plan for the next 15 years, financial plan is critical, a professional plan may or may not be requried.
- consider obtaining specific technical skills required in this day and age
- continue to seek employment with your current skill set
- consider entrepreneurial opportunities
- seek professional advice

Hope this helps.

 

[MDXer]

It sounds like you have a lot of DB experience, you may want to consider in some formal training on data modeling and db design. I don't think the DB platform is as relevant as a solid foundation in the theories behind why and how things are done.

I've learned VB along the way and can build tracking databases that generate just about anything the users have desired, along with graphs, trends, etc. I am very good at this.

If you have a solid foundation in reporting needs along with trends and the ability to interact with business users then you may want to look at Data Warehousing, or Business Intelligence.

Data Warehousing is a growing industry with companies starting to realise that there is value in all the transactions sitting in their OLTP systems. Business Intelligence is also a growing industry being the next logical step after Data warehousing. BI is actually reporting relevant information that lives within the Data warehouse.

"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[crotalus1]

Hi, thanks to all for the suggestions. Sounds like the first order of business is a plan, which I hadn't given much thought to. I'll look into some of those basic certifications too. That is a good idea.

Data warehousing and Business Intelligence are new terms for me. I will definitely look at that again.

Thanks so much.

 

[crotalus1]

Hi, as a followup I've been talking to a school called Centriq. They have two night course certifications, one in dot.net development and one for MCSE. I was a bit astounded at the prices - been out of the classroom too long I suppose.

Does anyone happen to have an opinion as to the pros and cons of these two certifications? I guess I am more interested in which certificate would be viewed as more marketable in the future.

Downsizing still looks to be a probablilty in six months or so. While I do not doubt I will land something, I still would like at least one piece of paper to tack to the resume.

Thanks for all your helpful advice.

Amazing.... looking through these forums, I could have saved myself a lot aggravation and frustration had I known this web site existed. I think I will make a donation or two as I undoubtedly will be benefitting from this. The pool of knowledge here is something else.

 

[RiverGuy]

I'm not sure how much good a .Net cert would do you. I never recall seeing many job ads for programming asking for certs in programming. They usually want experience.

MCSE, I have no clue. I believe I had seen that in the past in ads as wants/needs for applicants.

I would do some searches, and see what you can find as to what certs are desired for applicants.

 

[SQLSister]

I'm going to say something harsh here. At 48 your lack of a degree is not your worst problem. Most hiring officials really only care about degrees at the entry level. The biggest problem you have right now is your age. Most IT hiring managers are considerably younger than this and will not consider someone in your age no matter what their qualifications becasue they believe two things:
A. You will be too expensive (a 22 year old will accept a much smaller salary than a 48 year-old)
B. You are too old to learn new technologies and methods

Clearly these things are only true for some subset of the older population, but they are widely held beliefs particularly in a field like IT where, by far, the majority of workers are young.

Frankly your best bet is to focus your resume so that your experience is highlighted and the actual number of years you have eworked is not. Rememeber you only need the last ten years of experience on your resume.

Lose the objectives section altogether and replace it with an accomplishments section. Put that section first, then the listing of technical skills, and bury the work history on the second page (even then, only go back 10 years). You nmeed to make thenm so impressed with what you have done, that they don't care about anything else.

Address the two fears in the cover latter. If your slary requirements are not outrageously high, make sure they know that. If they are then make sure they knkow that they are getting someone who has the skills to perform at a higher level than an entry level worker and so is worht the money.

Make sure you discuss your ability to pick up new technolies and languages and make it clear that you have done so recently.

Good Luck.

 

[RiverGuy]

SQLSister, it is illegal to discriminate against a potential applicant because of age. I would never recommend someone to hide the fact that they have many, many years of experience. If someone wants a job for a certain wage, and the only thing that separates him or her from other applicants is more experience, the more experienced worker will probably get the job.

 

[mkov]

RiverGuy,

You are correct, but I would love for someone to prove that they were discriminated against because of age when trying for a job.

There are many things that it is illegal to discriminate against, but proving it is almost impossible.

My grandfather used to do the hiring where he worked, if he didn't like the way that you dressed, had an earring(male applicants) and many other things, he would throw the resume in the garbage right after you walked out of his office.

 

[Stella740pl]

RiverGuy,

mkov is right, even though "it's illegal to discriminate against a potential applicant because of age", it is also almost impossible to prove. No one would tell you that they hired someone else because he was younger, at best they might tell you he better suited their needs. Yes, I've heard from one young manager that he was intimidated by a potential subordinate twice his age (and that candidate was with higher educational level than the manager, too, and has well shown his ability to learn new technologies at advanced age). His age was not the only reason, though, why a younger person with less experience and somewhat less education got the job (the younger person's experience was more relevant to the job, and the personality more fitting in the group, from what I heard).

It seems that many people here have seen age discrimination to some degree. See thread655-670520 and thread655-733494.

 

[crotalus1]

Most IT hiring managers are considerably younger than this and will not consider someone in your age no matter what their qualifications becasue they believe two things:
A. You will be too expensive (a 22 year old will accept a much smaller salary than a 48 year-old)
B. You are too old to learn new technologies and methods

Hmmm, sounds like Greecian Formula 45 and a facelift is in order, lol.

Thanks for the resume ideas.

 

[Onyxpurr]

Have you considered business analyst? It sounds like your skillset is somewhat close to mine in nature.

In trying to stay proactive in my job situation, I do think about what jobs I would pursue if laid off, and I think that while I would still consider a programming job, business analyst is probably what I'm better suited for (skill wise) and perhaps you as well.

It's sounds like your excellent at determining customer needs and generating reports based on those needs.

I've also noticed more openings in this area (at least in my geographical area).

 

[crotalus1]

-Another update. I decided to send out some feelers to a couple competitors and got one solid bite and one maybe. It will be interesting.

At any rate, if anyone has an opinion....I think I would do better in satisfying my inner child in getting at least one piece of paper.

I have two choices in classroom study. Dot.net certification or the MCSE certification. Using your crystal ball, are either one of these worth the expense? Are there alternate forms of education (that I seem to have specialized in) that you could obtain a certificate that would be relevant to the future of database work?

With Greecian Formula 45, possible face lift, and not yet reduced expectations..... prepared to march into the future.

 

[BiggerDon]

In my humble opinion, you should concentrate on the cert that augments your experience. I have not checked out the Dot.Net certs but for the most part MCSE stands for Means Completed Some Exam to me. I think your experience speaks volumes and you already seem to have interest form others with out them. I don't have an MCSE and I may go ahead and take the exams if during the course of my duties I feel I have learned enough to do well. I personally wouldn't lay out the cash for a course that is vastly different from your knowledge base just to put a few letters after your name. ESQ is free if you need it!