Visual FreePro development resumes 8

[foxmuldr3]

I'm going to be resuming development on Visual FreePro, Jr. It plans to clone the VFP9 operational environment and add some new functionality. I'm going to be focused on compatibility with existing source code and features presently so that existing code bases will gain a new lease on life regardless of what Microsoft update might break existing VFP functionality.

If any of you would like to participate ... please! Jump on board!

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Chris Miller]

it's still their product, and it's still legally their asset

I don't disagree with that. I think Mike is still right that in some jurisdictions local law can override the license terms.

I also would rather use a clone that's developed from scratch as I also still respect MS ownership, that's not the question. But I think you can argue against claims as MS only provides their discontinued product as is without warranties and support of any sorts, and these conditions are important for the UK act about the legality of the decompilation, I think. In short, MS lost their rights claims of the EULA in the UK, as they don't offer what's minimum duties for sales of a product by law, too: Warranty and support. MS also doesn't support MSDN subscribers in such outdated products.

It's not asking it legally worldwide, I think, but Mike convinced me at least VFPA could stand a chance against an MS lawsuit in/for parts of the world that override the copyright act under specific circumstances. This means it becomes legal to fix and extend such a product and to provide it commercially, too.

Chriss

 

[foxmuldr3]

I think Microsoft is like the Borg: "They'll ignore you until they consider you a threat." But when they do consider you / your product / your rising enterprise a threat, they'll do whatever is required legally (and if history is any teacher, illegally) to stop you.

It's best to avoid them.

I've considered writing something "close" to VFP and creating an auto-translator to translate what VFP did into the new way that my product would work, so it maintains 100% compatibility in functionality, just does it a different way. In that way there wouldn't be any issues. But, I don't think it's necessary. Microsoft argued that XBASE was in the public domain in their lawsuit against Ashton Tate and won. And all Microsoft has done is extended the XBASE abilities, adding what is common syntax for its OO parts.

I think Visual FreePro (based on the capabilities of an open source product) would be ultimately free from all MS intrusions were it to ever go before a court of law.

I'd be willing to stop development on it if they gave me a job working on Visual Studio, and specifically in their debugger department. Would be my dream job.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[foxmuldr3]

If any of you have basic or more advanced C programming experience and would like to participate in development, I am willing to teach you the rest. I can also take your submissions and tweak them to be correct with the Visual FreePro design. I've done this with someone who had limited C programming, but did his level best to add new functions.

I want Visual FreePro to be a wide community effort, not a Rick plus a couple effort.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Mike Lewis]

Rick,

We've talked in this thread in detail about the technical and legal issues. (And I stress that the legal points I have raised shouldn't discourage you from going ahead with this.)

There's one more issue that you should consiser, however, and that is the market for the product. In short, are there enough potential users in the world to justify the time and effort involved?

I might be wrong about this, but at first glance I don't see that it will fill a specific need that is not being met in other ways. Many of us would probably download it and give it a try if only out of curiosity. But I wonder how many would actually use it on a commercial project for a client or employer - especially given that the market for VFP in general is shrinking rapidly.

Just one more thing to consider.

Mike

__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Visual FoxPro articles, tips and downloads

 

[foxmuldr3]

How many of us would switch back to VFP development if Microsoft announced today they were resuming VFP10 development?

In addition, how many of us have arsenals of existing software bases, well debugged and feature rich, that would be viable again with a runtime engine that isn't under threat of ceasing to work with the next Windows update?

Also, I don't believe in the cloud. I do belueve in stand alone software.

Visual FreePro will add support for OpenGL, networking, and a new report engine. It will allow C code to work with XBASE code. It will breathe new life into a familiar market with established software in a wide range of business disciplines.

It will have the wares. It will have the software. It will provide ongoing support against future Microsoft changes to Windows which break VFP. It will give people a new choice to make in deciding which way to go.

With the source code available for free ... I think it will tempt. But apart from that, I don't believe in the cloud. I will continue development on it for that reason alone. I truly believe in the power of stand alone software, coupled to the ability to exchange data with other computers. But as far as only on the cloud software ... I do disagree with that philosophy because it literally makes people renters, not owners. Stand alone software empowers the end user. Cloud-based software de-empowers the end user and empowers whoever the owners of the data are.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Steve Meyerson]

I don't believe in the cloud..

I agree "In-the-cloud" software is a horrible concept. It makes users prisoners of Microsoft, Adobe, etc. Anf of the internet.

I believe It also tempts users (Who, Me?) to find other means (some "illegal") to find older copies of stand-alone versions (like VFP?).

Good luck on your Visual FreePro project!

Steve

 

[tomk3]

Hello,

sounds interesting (again).

How do you differ from X# (

https://www.xsharp.eu/)

and Xbase++ (

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbase++),

except lic. model ?

For example : will it use existing forms / classes ?
(x# has a converter for forms)

regards
tom

 

[foxmuldr3]

Visual FreePro will be a 100% copy of the entire VFP environment with one change, instead of the _vfp object it will use a _vjr object, or maybe some other name eventually if the name is changed from Visual FreePro to Maestro or something else. Naming the project is still open.

It is my hope that all VFP9 software will run with zero changes, if you have the source code, save that one. It will create .exe files, it will be self-contained (will not require runtime DLLs, save those that it uses which are part of Windows and the C runtime library).

It's the dream. We'll see what happens. I believe I have the technical expertise to complete it. What I lack is the ability to develop on it full-time. So, I'm turning to the community to assist me.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[german12]

foxmuldr3 , I admire your courage in wanting to undertake such a difficult project.
I read this here:
It is important to want to push through an idea. It doesn't really matter whether it succeeds.
But it's bad if you don't have any ideas, because at some point you realize that it's too late for that.
That's why it's so much more reassuring to say, "At least I tried."
Unfortunately I can't help - but I wish you all the best in achieving this interesting goal.
Klaus

Peace worldwide - it starts here...

 

[foxmuldr3]

Thank you, Klaus.

We'll need XBASE code testers at some point. Maybe some others could jump in and help at that time.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Mike Lewis]

We'll need XBASE code testers at some point.

I'd be happy to help with that, but it would depend on how busy I was at the time. Keep me in mind but don't rely on it.

Mike

__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Visual FoxPro articles, tips and downloads

 

[Canonian]

Any updates on this thread?

 

[foxmuldr3]

I am working on an assembly language tutorial. It should be completed in September. After that I will resume development.

x86 Assembly

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Myrick]

Rick;
I have seen references to your Visual FreePro in Foxite. Is there a link or copies available? I would be interested in checking it out.
David Myrick
Myrick Consulting Services

 

[foxmuldr3]

It's still under development and is not currently usable as a standalone tool.

It is very promising though.

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Myrick]

Great. If you need help or just want feedback, send me a note via email. Good luck!

 

[foxmuldr3]

I was contacted by someone about a request to assist in development.

I wanted to let everyone know that I've been working on a kind of next-gen FoxPro I call FreeFlow. It uses OpenGL for the forms presentation manager, and has some new graphical abilities. Under the hood it's still basically XBASE with some extensions added in, specifically in the areas of networking and a better report engine.

I've also created a secure database engine called DataFlow. It does not require a database container, and uses .DFL files for data, and .DFI files for indexes. They are secure and store data using an RSA key.

Needs work, but that's where I'm at. I also have another project that is taking the bulk of my time right now, which is a custom CPU I designed called Inspire, and various applications of it in a VM. My hope is to create FreeFlow to run inside of my Inspire VM, so a very thin client would be required to have it work on any system.

To dream...

--
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[DobsRock]

Anxiously waiting

 

[Mike Lewis]

Thanks for the update, Rick. FreeFlow sounds like a better name than Visual FreePro, if only from a legal point of view (but don't take my word for that; you'll obviously want to check the legalities if you get to the stage of making this a commercial product).

One minor comment. You say that there is no database container (that is, no equivalent of VFP's DBC). Do you mean that all the data - the entire database - is held in a single DFL file (equivalent to SQL Server's MDF, perhaps)? Or is there one DFL file per table - like VFP's DBF?

If the former, I wonder why you don't also store the indexes in the single DFL?

In either case, there would presumably be no backward compatibility with VFP data files?

I appreciate you will have put a lot of thought into the design, so please don't take the above as any sort of criticism. I am only asking out of passing curiosity.

Good luck with this work, and with your other project.

Mike

__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Visual FoxPro articles, tips and downloads

 

[foxmuldr3]

Mike,

Visual FreePro was never intended to be the release name. Just the working name. I had considered several names over the years but never found a good one. I started work on the FreeFlow data engine and DataFlow naturally followed for the rest of the design.

The .DFL files are like .DBF files in that they are singular. Same with .DFI files being like .CDX files. But, in both cases they define additional information similar to how we can store extra table and procedure information in DBCs. They both allow for additional properties we don't have today. We can read fields that combine data at the field level, enum constants to allow integer fields to have named meanings. This information goes with the DFL/DFI so it's always in context when used. Values defined there can also be declared to be visible publicly, so they can be used in code as well.

There is backward compatibility with existing DBC/DBF/CDX/IDX files, as well as SCX/VCX files. I already had most of that developed for Visual FreePro, Jr. You can use either or both at the same time as needed, but the new presentation engine will always be an OpenGL window. This gives you a virtual desktop you can move to with some new navigation controls to allow a better way to arrange forms than just stacking. They can be spatial, and they can have visible depth, so when you go into a sub-form from one you can see it in a new layer.

I'm excited about it, but I have lots of things on my life plate. I wish I could do this kind of development full-time, but life's requirements do not allow it at present.

--
Rick C. Hodgin