We were quoted an upgrade to a Shortel from ATT, but the owner doesn't want to spend the money there and see the useful equipment we currently have go to waste. Is there an easy upgrade path from a 50 to 450 or would it be easier to start from scratch? I've seen a couple documents but they all had higher releases, we are on 1. I've tried contacting a few local places but no one wants to return calls, so I am on my own currently as to figuring out a solution.
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Upgrade to a BCM 450 from a 50? 2
- Thread starter PImoose
- Start date
Hovus: Sorry, but didn't Avaya buy Nortel?"
Avaya didn't buy Nortel - just the division called Nortel Enterprise Solutions (NES). Before this acquisition, Nortel was downsized from as many as 96000 employees to 10000 or fewer. From these numbers, one might assume that there could be a few people outside of Avaya potentially qualified to support Nortel phones.
Also, you should consider the main reason why Avaya acquired NES. I think it’s effectively clear that the reason was to get the NES customer base with the plan to convince as many customers as possible to migrate to Avaya switches and then kill Nortel products.
Right after Avaya’s acquisition of NES, many acquired employees were moved to IP Office. Only a small group was kept to maintain Nortel switches. Norstar and BCM are now discontinued - CS1000 is next on the list. If you decide to go with Avaya, the only longer term roadmap that you have seems to be the move to IP Office. On the other hand, E-MetroTel is trying to continue with Nortel’s “evergreen philosophy”.
PImoose indicates that the reuse of existing equipment and the ability to add more users are his top priorities. In that case, I’d say that UCx could indeed be a great choice. With UCx, he could reuse all the phones connected to the BCM50, the BCM50 itself (as UCx Digital Gateway) and BCM50 expansion modules and DSM MBM’s. To add more users, he could either keep adding Nortel/Avaya digital or IP phones or select from a wide variety of SIP phones. With Nortel/Avaya IP phones (which can use either UNISTIM or SIP firmware) and with other vendors’ SIP phones, the investment into new phones would be reasonably safe because these phones can be used with all telephone switches that support SIP clients.
Also, UCx does not require any additional licenses to use SIP trunks – the cost to sign up with a SIP trunk provider (e.g., VoIP.ms) and evaluate the option of using SIP trunks for external calls is minimal – the potential benefit could be huge savings on long distance charges.
Finally, the migration to UCx would be effectively seemless for end users - UCx supports many Norstar/BCM feaures and the phones can be configured to behave pretty much like on BCM.
Avaya didn't buy Nortel - just the division called Nortel Enterprise Solutions (NES). Before this acquisition, Nortel was downsized from as many as 96000 employees to 10000 or fewer. From these numbers, one might assume that there could be a few people outside of Avaya potentially qualified to support Nortel phones.
Also, you should consider the main reason why Avaya acquired NES. I think it’s effectively clear that the reason was to get the NES customer base with the plan to convince as many customers as possible to migrate to Avaya switches and then kill Nortel products.
Right after Avaya’s acquisition of NES, many acquired employees were moved to IP Office. Only a small group was kept to maintain Nortel switches. Norstar and BCM are now discontinued - CS1000 is next on the list. If you decide to go with Avaya, the only longer term roadmap that you have seems to be the move to IP Office. On the other hand, E-MetroTel is trying to continue with Nortel’s “evergreen philosophy”.
PImoose indicates that the reuse of existing equipment and the ability to add more users are his top priorities. In that case, I’d say that UCx could indeed be a great choice. With UCx, he could reuse all the phones connected to the BCM50, the BCM50 itself (as UCx Digital Gateway) and BCM50 expansion modules and DSM MBM’s. To add more users, he could either keep adding Nortel/Avaya digital or IP phones or select from a wide variety of SIP phones. With Nortel/Avaya IP phones (which can use either UNISTIM or SIP firmware) and with other vendors’ SIP phones, the investment into new phones would be reasonably safe because these phones can be used with all telephone switches that support SIP clients.
Also, UCx does not require any additional licenses to use SIP trunks – the cost to sign up with a SIP trunk provider (e.g., VoIP.ms) and evaluate the option of using SIP trunks for external calls is minimal – the potential benefit could be huge savings on long distance charges.
Finally, the migration to UCx would be effectively seemless for end users - UCx supports many Norstar/BCM feaures and the phones can be configured to behave pretty much like on BCM.
phoneguy610: When you google a phone system and it only pops up 3 pages and half of them are you tubes videos by a guy who does this part time ..."
Whoa - did you really get just 3 results??? I was curious, so I went to google.com and entered "E-MetroTel UCx" - I got 204 results. Interesting - you got 3 links and half of them were youtube videos - so one link was half pointing to youtube and half to something else?![[bigsmile]](/data/assets/smilies/bigsmile.gif "[bigsmile] [bigsmile]")
Whoa - did you really get just 3 results??? I was curious, so I went to google.com and entered "E-MetroTel UCx" - I got 204 results. Interesting - you got 3 links and half of them were youtube videos - so one link was half pointing to youtube and half to something else?
phoneguy610
Programmer
lol im not talking about a single vendor... avaya is a network of vendors with hundreds of millions of users worldwide.
What do you guys have like 8 LOLOLOLOOL
and 204 results for something someone is going to invest thousands of dollars in??
and you are to tell me that he is going to invest in a system that gives him the reuse of his phones but basically nothing after that? just sip endpoints that work with any system on the planet?
and that only kind of work?
as opposed to avaya that makes all of their own equipment?
like my smiley face avaya buddy told me before you guys reported it.. "if you want to champion a phone system that uses dated handsets and moving forward your only choices are sip handsets that are kind of supported, thats your business decision. I am in the business of selling new equipment that works."
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
What do you guys have like 8 LOLOLOLOOL
and 204 results for something someone is going to invest thousands of dollars in??
and you are to tell me that he is going to invest in a system that gives him the reuse of his phones but basically nothing after that? just sip endpoints that work with any system on the planet?
and that only kind of work?
as opposed to avaya that makes all of their own equipment?
like my smiley face avaya buddy told me before you guys reported it.. "if you want to champion a phone system that uses dated handsets and moving forward your only choices are sip handsets that are kind of supported, thats your business decision. I am in the business of selling new equipment that works."
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
thats like comparing a back alley sandwich shop to subway
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
honestly any of these pure IP + sip trunks systems.... its basically hosted but you have to pay for the box also.... so my question to you is why?
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
and ring ring please see our website
we are a proud dealer of three different pbxs
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
we are a proud dealer of three different pbxs
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
- Thread starter
- #27
The more I read the more I think the 450 is the easiest path forward, albeit license issues. I could reuse my DSM 32+ card, the PRI card, and give me hopefully the least amount of down time. ATT has said their will be delays if we try to move off the T1 for our numbers to our current fiber that we use.
The eMetrotel is interesting but the lack of information is concerning. I would also rather not have another device to manage, ie plugging the BCM50 into it. I'm looking for one device to manage two offices, with the remote office having IP phones connected over our VPN. So I would look at the U450 but that says 130 users, which isn't far off, any upgrades to it? How do all our digital sets connect to it? How does the T1 hook in?
As like alot of places there is minimal cash being put towards this and minimal time as I am busy supporting the infrastructure for expansion into other buildings.
The eMetrotel is interesting but the lack of information is concerning. I would also rather not have another device to manage, ie plugging the BCM50 into it. I'm looking for one device to manage two offices, with the remote office having IP phones connected over our VPN. So I would look at the U450 but that says 130 users, which isn't far off, any upgrades to it? How do all our digital sets connect to it? How does the T1 hook in?
As like alot of places there is minimal cash being put towards this and minimal time as I am busy supporting the infrastructure for expansion into other buildings.
phoneguy610
Programmer
450 is still great.... we still have loads of them out there
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
i would highly advise you to make a few phone calls and get soome vendors out there
i know we for example do not charge for a site survey/proposal
that would give you plenty of options plus the ability to meet with the vendors
a big part about owning a phone system is having a good relationship with the ones who support it
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
i know we for example do not charge for a site survey/proposal
that would give you plenty of options plus the ability to meet with the vendors
a big part about owning a phone system is having a good relationship with the ones who support it
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
-
1
- #30
Dear phoneguy610! It looks like you intentionally twist the facts in an attempt to make your point.
Avaya is a company – not a network of vendors.
Why do you claim that “SIP endpoints … only kind of work … as opposed to avaya that makes their own equipment”? Think about it before you write – Avaya is one of the manufacturers of SIP endpoints that – according to you – only kind of work. Why do you put Avaya above all other manufacturers of SIP phones?
UCx isn’t a pure IP + SIP trunks system. You can order UCx systems with BRI, PRI or analog cards for PSTN connectivity.
I must admit that I have eaten quite a few Subway sandwiches in my life – but I also know about small stores that serve much better sandwiches and provide significantly better service. In my experience, it’s quite similar with phone systems. If you go with a large company, you get the service that can be expected from such a company – it typically takes many months and a lot of effort to get from a problem report to a resolution (and in my experience Avaya is really bad in this area). Smaller companies tend to be much more agile – typical problem resolution times are usually hours or days.
Different people may have different opinions and priorities – for some companies, it can be acceptable or even preferable to go with a small vendor while for other companies a large vendor may be the only valid choice.
This forum is supposed to be used to help others and to share opinions. You appear to use it to ridicule and/or flame others who do not share your opinions. Could you please reconsider your approach?
Avaya is a company – not a network of vendors.
Why do you claim that “SIP endpoints … only kind of work … as opposed to avaya that makes their own equipment”? Think about it before you write – Avaya is one of the manufacturers of SIP endpoints that – according to you – only kind of work. Why do you put Avaya above all other manufacturers of SIP phones?
UCx isn’t a pure IP + SIP trunks system. You can order UCx systems with BRI, PRI or analog cards for PSTN connectivity.
I must admit that I have eaten quite a few Subway sandwiches in my life – but I also know about small stores that serve much better sandwiches and provide significantly better service. In my experience, it’s quite similar with phone systems. If you go with a large company, you get the service that can be expected from such a company – it typically takes many months and a lot of effort to get from a problem report to a resolution (and in my experience Avaya is really bad in this area). Smaller companies tend to be much more agile – typical problem resolution times are usually hours or days.
Different people may have different opinions and priorities – for some companies, it can be acceptable or even preferable to go with a small vendor while for other companies a large vendor may be the only valid choice.
This forum is supposed to be used to help others and to share opinions. You appear to use it to ridicule and/or flame others who do not share your opinions. Could you please reconsider your approach?
Yet you continue adding fuel to the fire...I'm pretty sure he was done after his last post to the OP. Please take your own advice and refrain from pointlessly dragging on this tirade. Thank you.
I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream has gone from me.
I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream has gone from me.
phoneguy610
Programmer
hovus is correct
and i only struck back after a dozen or so posts such as the first one on here: "screw the ip office"
and the avaya endpoints are made to work with the avaya system
you will never get the full feature set on a pure ip system (and yes that is what the ucx is. Cisco makes sip gateways for just about anything that any other pure ip system can use as well. I myself have worked on 3 of them before i couldnt take it anymore lol)
this isnt a d!ck measuring contest.
Just dont constantly shoot at the sleeping giant and not expect some kind of retaliation
when we looked at new products to sell to our customers after nortel collapsed, the first thing we asked ourselves is would we buy this product.
maybe you should do the same
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
and i only struck back after a dozen or so posts such as the first one on here: "screw the ip office"
and the avaya endpoints are made to work with the avaya system
you will never get the full feature set on a pure ip system (and yes that is what the ucx is. Cisco makes sip gateways for just about anything that any other pure ip system can use as well. I myself have worked on 3 of them before i couldnt take it anymore lol)
this isnt a d!ck measuring contest.
Just dont constantly shoot at the sleeping giant and not expect some kind of retaliation
when we looked at new products to sell to our customers after nortel collapsed, the first thing we asked ourselves is would we buy this product.
maybe you should do the same
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
and to the problem resolution bit you lied about above
that is the vendor, and unlike the ucx with likely less than 10 dealers worldwide (just a guess maybe you can tell me the real number) there are at least a dozen in every state. That lets you decide your vendor and they are the ones responsible for customer support. We have a 4 hour response time (2 with a maintenance contract) i dont know where you get months from???
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
that is the vendor, and unlike the ucx with likely less than 10 dealers worldwide (just a guess maybe you can tell me the real number) there are at least a dozen in every state. That lets you decide your vendor and they are the ones responsible for customer support. We have a 4 hour response time (2 with a maintenance contract
) i dont know where you get months from???ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
- Thread starter
- #34
a big part about owning a phone system is having a good relationship with the ones who support it"
I have a good relationship with myself We didn't have support for our BCM for 6yrs now, so I can just about guarantee that will continue. I've contacted a few local vendors as I was hoping to have someone be able to help, finally got a call back this am. We'll see what the quote looks like and then what the owner thinks.
I have a good relationship with myself
We didn't have support for our BCM for 6yrs now, so I can just about guarantee that will continue. I've contacted a few local vendors as I was hoping to have someone be able to help, finally got a call back this am. We'll see what the quote looks like and then what the owner thinks.
phoneguy610
Programmer
we have plenty customers like yourself and to be honest... those are my favorite kind!
Most vendors will give you admin training post install if you request it. Many of our larger clients that have an inhouse it staff always request this.
Then just call the big guns for the crazy stuff you cant figure out.
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
Most vendors will give you admin training post install if you request it. Many of our larger clients that have an inhouse it staff always request this.
Then just call the big guns for the crazy stuff you cant figure out.
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
PImoose, BCM450 is certainly the easiest way to update. The reuse of equipment is good (you only discard the BCM50 and expansion chassis). Everything works the same as on BCM50, the management is the same - no learning curve at all. There are two disadvantages to this solution. All BCM systems with the exception of BCM50 SRG are now EOS (End of Sales). The cost of the ugprade from BCM50 to BCM450 is relatively high.
With regard to UCx450, you'd get also good reuse of the equipment, but at a more reasonable price point.
According to the documentation ( the UCx450 system can support up to 150 users and 150 concurrent calls. I've heard from E-MetroTel sales people newly updated values that are higher than that (at least for the number of users - not sure if also for concurrent calls). Give them a call to get up-to-date info.
You can order the UCx450 system with an internal digital trunk card with 1 to 4 spans (your T1 would connect to that).
Nortel digital phones would stay connected to your BCM50 as they are right now. The only physical change you'd have to do is to replace the BCM50 hard drive with E-MetroTel's SSD. This replacement would convert the BCM50 into "UCx Digital Gateway". Once this is done, you'd have to initially configure network settings of the BCM50 and the IP address of the UCx server (UCx450). Everything else is configured on the UCx server.
If you need more information, you can take a peek at or contact E-MetroTel by e-mail or phone
With regard to UCx450, you'd get also good reuse of the equipment, but at a more reasonable price point.
According to the documentation ( the UCx450 system can support up to 150 users and 150 concurrent calls. I've heard from E-MetroTel sales people newly updated values that are higher than that (at least for the number of users - not sure if also for concurrent calls). Give them a call to get up-to-date info.
You can order the UCx450 system with an internal digital trunk card with 1 to 4 spans (your T1 would connect to that).
Nortel digital phones would stay connected to your BCM50 as they are right now. The only physical change you'd have to do is to replace the BCM50 hard drive with E-MetroTel's SSD. This replacement would convert the BCM50 into "UCx Digital Gateway". Once this is done, you'd have to initially configure network settings of the BCM50 and the IP address of the UCx server (UCx450). Everything else is configured on the UCx server.
If you need more information, you can take a peek at or contact E-MetroTel by e-mail or phone
phoneguy610
Programmer
I have worked on BCM since 0.96 version of the Enterprise Edge and its been hard to see it going away. The 450 v6 is the best ever. Having said that I am putting my 2 cents worth in. We sell Avaya and ShoreTel and I would have to say the support we receive as a distributor from ShoreTel is far superior to Avaya. Which in turn gives the end customer better support. The implementation and maintenance of ShoreTel is quicker and easier for techs, trainers and end users. I have been through my fair share of telecom companies being bought, Executone and Isoetec, Executone and Inter-Tel, Inter-Tel and Mitel. Keeping the old sets working on the new companies back end seems like a good idea at first but you are better off in the long run to just bite the bullet and forklift everything to all new. I highly reccommend ShoreTel !!!
APDS, ACIS, ACSS
BCM, CS1000, IPO, AURA
APDS, ACIS, ACSS
BCM, CS1000, IPO, AURA
phoneguy610
Programmer
I have heard good things about shoretel, but the price is a huge turnoff ...whatever quote you get for avaya double it
Plus their lingering low stock price is a matter of concern
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
Plus their lingering low stock price is a matter of concern
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
phoneguy610
Programmer
I must say though, their phones are very attractive
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
ddcommllc.com
Avaya/Toshiba/SyntelSolutions
ACIS
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