Unfair treatment to those with children in IT? 8

[BeckahC]

I am just wondering if this seems to happen to anyone else out there. I used to be considered an excellent programer, got excellent reviews and raises yearly. I had a baby earlier this year and now all of a sudden I am doing the same work (if not more) and being berated, given poor reviews and no raise this year at all!

I would not have considered that this was because of my new family status if my boss had not said that it seemed to him that I am thinking more of my family than of work! Which is true, but still ridiculous to note! I still do all of my work well and on time and all of the users of my programs are totally satisfied, as always... the only thing that has seemed to change is my boss's attitude towards me. The real kicker is that he seems to be doing the same thing to another woman in the group who had her baby a couple of months before me.

I am thinking this might be illegal, but am afraid to comment on it or I might get fired or "laid off" and I really need the benefits from this position, even though the pay is barely enough to cover childcare!

Any ideas, suggetions, kindred spirits out there?

BeckahC

 

[benlinkknilneb]

<sarcasm> Imagine, a mother putting her child ahead of her job... What's this world come to? </sarcasm>

Being a guy, I've never had to deal with this. You're right though; it does sound a bit shady. Perhaps you should find out all you can about the other lady's situation... the 2 of you may be able to work together to solve the problem. Is there perhaps someone in a sort of HR department at your work who could help you?

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled &quot;F1!&quot;

 

[BeckahC]

Well, we do talk often... we're kind of each other's support system... I think we are both waiting to see if the pattern continues with the next group member to have a baby - she's due next month...

The only thing my boss has on me is that whenever my baby has been sick I have had to work from home to take care of her, same with this friend/co-worker he treats similarly. Just to let you know - your sarcasm is actually pretty close to how this boss of ours seems to act! The kicker is he has 3 kids of his own!

BeckahC

 

[pmrankine]

BeckahC,
I'm a little worried after reading your post - I'm expecting my first child in March next year so I'm hoping not to experience the same myself. [Senior management have said they don't intend to cover my maternity leave - nice to feel wanted!]

If I was to experience what you are describing I'd definitely not be best pleased. I would think that your boss would have to be able to prove that you work was below par, if not then I'd say it was harrassment. Maybe a first step would be to approach your boss asking for examples of where he thinks your work is suffering - say you're asking to try to improve the situation as you were unaware that your standard of work was slipping. If he says it's nothing in particular then if either tell him how you feel or speak to personnell.

pmrankine

 

[BeckahC]

Already asked - during my horrible review a couple of weeks ago - he feels that I am moving to slow in learning a new language and not turning out as much as I should be. This would just be because of the particular language and programming I am working on at the time, but he doesn't care - all programs should take the same amount of time and effort - or something to that effect...

I wouldn't worry before hand, plenty of other stuff to worry over first! congrats, by the way

This is my first child, but my friend's 3rd, so it is not seeming to even be an issue with me trying to get back in the grove of things, so to speak...

BeckahC

 

[SF0751]

BeckahC and pmrankine - are you both in the US? Discrimination against pregnant employees and mothers is against the law. Maternity leave is covered by The Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) of 1993. See

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/whd/fmla.htm

for the exact wording of the FMLA law. I would echo benlinkknilneb's remarks - go talk to your HR department and/or go see a lawyer.


Susan
[sup]Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live. - Mark Twain[/sup]

 

[BeckahC]

I am in the US - my treatment prior to and during my maternity leave was excellent. Even my welcome back and the first while that I was back seemed fine... then the &quot;problems&quot; started. I think that this is just a personal issue with my boss - odd since he doesn't take well to bringing personal stuff with you to work;-)

I happen to have a labor attorny/arbitrator in my family and have been considering calling... again, I am afraid if I rock the boat I might fall out... or get &quot;pushed&quot; out... But I guess speaking with my relative about this couldn't hurt.

BeckahC

 

[pmrankine]

Hi Susan,
I'm in the UK but I believe that there's similar laws here as well to cover maternity leave. I guess the problem BeckahC is having is that she is now past her maternity leave so it's not covered. But I would imagine that the problem would fall into the harrassment/descrimination category if an employee is unfairly treated.

We should all go work for IKEA - apparently employees get a day off on there child's first day of school and if the child is ill the employee can take the day off to care for them!

pmrankine

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Beckah,

Just out of curiosity: What language are you learning? How long have you been working on it, and how much training has the company provided?

My suggestion would be to talk to the lawyer in your family FIRST to see where you stand on the legal side of things. That way, (assume that you don't have a case) you're not really rocking the boat. However, if you DO have a case, then I'd think that losing your job there won't be too big of a deal... the lawsuit would more than likely keep your baby fed until you can find a new job. If you talk to your HR person before you find out where you stand, you may be rocking the boat before you're ready.

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled &quot;F1!&quot;

 

[Kjonnnn]

My suggestion is for you (and it will be more work for you) is to document what you do and his reactions and interactions with you. Keep a journal. Dates .. times .. details of what is said. Keep track of what you're learning. Id even include outside resources as in the case you mentioned the software has a steeper learning curve. Get some outside source to confirm that. Should this ever proceed to you taking the matter to HR or the EEOC, documentation of events as they happened will be of great benefit to you. I'd slow shift communicating with him to email if possible. That way questions and response are documented. Print Save File. Its a pain I know. But if you have to bring so type of charges, the burden of proof will be on you.

 

[benlinkknilneb]

A star for Kjonnnn... excellent advice! I'd have said the same if I'd thought of it faster... esp. the &quot;switch communication to email&quot;... that would be an unobtrusive way to provide good documentation. Even if you don't print them... just don't delete 'em!

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled &quot;F1!&quot;

 

[BeckahC]

Well, by trade I am a SQL Server and ASP programmer. My boss wanted me to learn Natural to help the &quot;team&quot; out. I was and still am under the impression that my primary duties are to support and maintain the software and programs I was hired to work on. Natural comes after that.

The only &quot;training&quot; I have received has been to go through the Natural tutorials on itself, called ELITE, and I have a &quot;mentor&quot; who shows me the ropes when she has some free time and gets me projects and programs to work on when I am done with the previous ones she gave me. No formal training at all, and I was not told what pace I was supposed to maintain at all! My mentor even told me to slow down at a couple of occassions because with some of the work I was doing I picked up pretty quickly and blew through it - she told me to take my time! I have been working on Natural since around May of this year and have completed many program changes and new programs in it - until my review I thought I was doing quite well, he gave me no indication at all that he was not pleased with my work!

BeckahC

 

[BeckahC]

I have been doing ost by e-mail, even when I speak with him in his office, I then go back to my desk and write an e-mail to &quot;confirm&quot; and &quot;Review&quot; what we discussed.

BeckahC

 

[BakeMan]

BeckahC

This, unfortunately, is not a unique problem or one experienced only by women. My wife and I have had 3 children in the past 2 years. We had my oldest daughter (Lori) on Nov. 7, 2001 and then had twin daughters on Oct 30, 2002. We also have an 8 year old son. With the birth of Lori, I requested 1 week of unpaid leave to spend with her. My boss didn't have a problem with this and everything was normal. But less than a year later I requested the time again for the twins and was met with some resistance. I requested the time on both occasions well in advance and kept them appraised of the status on their birth prior to the actual time. But they did not want to approve my leave. I was even asked by upper management to give an exact date of my absence at least 4 weeks in advance. Now, I don't know about the other women in the world, but my wife is not that good at giving birth that she can plan the exact date 4 weeks in advance. I tried working with my management but continued to get the run around. About eight weeks before they were due I told them that if they continued to give me a hassle I would simply be force to leave. I also reminded them that the FMLA act is for fathers too. This seemed to get them off my back and my leave was approved. Everything seemed to returned to normal until one week later the twins were born (that's 7 weeks premature). This meant that they spent the first month of their lives in the hospital. My work was not very understanding and even asked me if I would consider an out of town meeting the day I was scheduled to come back to work. This would have been for three days. I mean come on!!! My wife is still in the hospital with my two new born children and I have a 7 year old and a 1 year old at home. Needless to say, I didn't go on that trip.

I believe the animosity I was feeling (and maybe you too) came from the fact that those imposing these restrictions and requests do not place their families first. Companies today are no longer interested in the employees happiness and well being. They only see the bottom line. Those who live there lives chasing this bottom line don't care why you are out or for how long, they only care about how it effects them and their goals. Now that you have kids, the company knows, by your actions, that your family comes first. You stated that when you child is sick, you have to work form home. All that management sees is that you are not there and completing your work as usual. It doesn't really matter that your work doesn't suffer or the reason you were absent. They just see a break in what they deem necessary to accomplish some predetermined goal. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for you. I still feel that sometimes I am branded as a non team player for having taken the time for my family, but it was well worth the sacrifice.

Maybe it's us that need to change. If we choose family life over work, even if we see it as of no consequence to work, we should expect to be held back a bit from those who make work their only focus. I really don't like the thought of our society heading in that direction, but sometimes I feel that it already has and we just haven't learned to live with it yet.

I hope things work out well for you BeckahC, and just remember that the children always come first, no matter what you boss may think.

BAKEMAN

 

[KornGeek]

A few comments here:

First, I wouldn't rely on a lawsuit to support you. You may be entirely right, but that doesn't guarantee a victory in the courts of law. Also, you may win, but there could be appeals and/or other delays that force you to wait for your money. Getting a verdict, and getting the payment are two separate beasts. I would tread carefully.

Second, I don't know about UK law, but American law grants the right to maternity (or paternity) leave. However, it does not force employers to grant paid leave. It just forces them to keep your job until you return (assuming that you return in a reasonable period of time). I have three kids right now, and I have taken paternity leave for each of them, but I used vacation time to do this.

Third, just so you don't feel as targeted because you are women, I get similar treatment as a man. My wife is currently expecting our fourth child (Yes, we are crazy. What makes you ask?), and my boss took it harder than either of our families (and they weren't entirely pleased).

IT people are expected to work insane hours. We all push back at some point to help preserve what little sanity we have left. (I believe that nobody sane would work in IT for any length of time. Between the stress, the hours, the pay, and the lack of appreciation, we must all be masochists.) Those of us with families are often viewed as doing so because of our families, which is only part of the truth. This causes people to question our dedication to our jobs. It's not like we're trying to take 30 hour weeks, but cutting back to the occasional 40-45 hour week is considered slacking off.

I find it ironic that we frequently see and hear things in the media stressing how important it is to spend time with your family. Everybody talks about the importance of this, and nobody disputes it. However, should somebody actually try to do this, they get punished.

Then again, that's just my 2 cents.

 

[BeckahC]

Thanks Bakeman and Korngeek! I am not sure that I feel much better to know that this happens to men to.... but I do feel better to know that there are men out there who care enough about family to be in the same/similar situation!

I honestly don't know what to do, if anything - aside from speaking with my lawyer relative and polishing my resume.

I will NEVER put work before my family and there is nothing at all that could ever change that. I genuinely hope that these companies that are trying to tell us to change that eventually see that by doing so they are really losing some great people... I, for 1, am looking to get OUT of IT and into something more family friendly.... like childcare or something that I can work from home often to spend more time with my baby and future babies!

(I don't think you're nuts, Korngeek - I am aiming for 3-4 myself.... just spaced out for lack of daycare $$! ;-))

It is odd though, that so many of us in IT do have such strong family values and are quite talented at what we do, and can manage to be both family people and good at work too... but companies can't seem to wrap their heads around that? Wouldn't happier employees mean a more productive workforce? I mean if I need to leave early to get my baby to the pediatrician, but I then work late at night after she is asleep so the next day I am either right on schedule or ahead of it.... what the heck is the problem? Why in looking only at the bottm line does management not see how they could increase it by keeping the people who work for them happy and content? This is very frustrating!

I absolutely agree with both of you - everyone is so big on how we need more time with our families... but then when we try to, we get screwed!

BeckahC

 

[Kjonnnn]

The EEOC handles employment issues and give free consultations. You would have to go thru them before any such lawsuits could materialize.

 

[SQLSister]

Hey a prejudice that has never been applied to me, what a unique concept!

In today's world, pretty much everybody gets screwed by unrealistic expectations on the part of management and expect them to get much worse if the Bush administration forces through the changes to the labor regulations that they have proposed which will make it even easier for companies to get out of paying overtime.

I'm single and childless and I always get that given to me as an excuse why I would be the better person to work the unpaid overtime.

The current belief system of managers is that 40 hours is not even a starting place for the number of hours you should work to be a good employee. This is true in many other fields besides IT, BTW. It never seems to occur to them that tired employees are less productive and make more mistakes that take more time to fix, etc. I've had bosses yell at me for going home to sleep after putting in a 23 hour day when I was so tired it is only luck alone that kept me from wrecking the car on the way home. What productive work she thought I was capable of doing in that state is utterly beyond me.

This is all in direct relationship to the greed that has invaded the work place. Why should a manager pay for two employees if he can force one employee to work 80 hours? Hiring two people might cut into the money available for his million dollar bonus.

I'm beginning to think the only solution is to start a movement to get the labor laws revised so that NO one can work more than 40 hours without overtime. I bet you'd see these unrealistic expectations drop like a rock if that happened! Unfortunately, I don't see that this is even remotely feasible in our current state of thinking that government regulation is bad and that unregulated capitalism is good.

 

[BeckahC]

Ooooo! That would be great! Time and a half for EVERYONE working more than 40hrs! I would be more than willing to do these installation weekends and such if I knew my family would benefit from it!

I have to say that long ago, when I was a clerk and got paid over-time, I was questioned everytime I asked to stay over to finish a project! Now I get questioned when I get it all done during &quot;normal&quot; business hours!

How about a comp day for everyone who works through lunch 5 days in a row?

Kjonnnn - I know I would have to go through them... I also know that whenever anyone speaks with them the company which they are speaking about will likely get investigated, whether or not a complaint gets filed they are at elast looked at and some questions asked... I would start out with a relative because I know that if she says I've got no case then it doesn't get any further and she won't go ahead and give the company a head's up that they have a complainer on the payroll...

BeckahC

 

[BJCooperIT]

Sorry to see this is still as much of a problem today as it was 20 years ago when my daughter, Kate, was a newborn. She was sick a lot after going into day care when I returned to work. My boss could not understand why I needed to stay home with her when she was ill. His view was: &quot;Baby sitters are a dime a dozen!&quot;. When I had to stay home, I learned to say *I* was sick and not blame it on the family.

There is no silver bullet for this problem. The only way I got him off my back was to bring Kate and my 3 stepsons to work on a &quot;crunch&quot; Saturday. Ignoring my instinct for well-behaved kids, I let them race around out-of-control all morning. They colored on listings we sometimes needed, spun around in chairs, laughed, yelled and ran thru the aisles. Kate threw up on the rug! My boss was the one that suggested that I did not need to stay for the rest afternoon or come in on Sunday.

Evil? Yes, but it worked! Of couse then I had to retrain the boys....sigh....

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
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