to apostrophe or not to apostrophe 2

[Stella740pl]

sbudzynski,

i think it's okay to let some things slide.
For instance when sending informal emails or typing on this forum i think its okay to say

It irritates many people in Tek-Tips technical forums (and makes your questions less comprehensible and less likely to be answered), but it definitely is not OK in this particular forum. Language is what this forum is all about.

 

[SantaMufasa]

???????, ??????. ?, ????????, ?? ?????? ??? ?????.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I concur Stella740pl. Thank you.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[SantaMufasa]

Sorry about all the question marks...I guess that Tek-Tips does not support Cyrillic characters...In Russian I said to Stella, "Thanks, Stella, I could not have said it better."

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[BobRodes]

On the other hand, we have a raft of children who are thinking faster than they can type (let alone spell), who are using abbreviations for that reason, and most of who do not much care about the arguments we're making. I suspect that it's the adolescent culture that is fueling this how much cn u put up with thing, and the less it plzs the adults, the happier they r.

Bob

 

[sbudzynski]

Stella740pl,

If you are stating that THIS forum should contain 100% error free grammar then I do believe you would be breaking your own decree.

For instance "Language is what this forum is all about." Is not a correct sentence due to the fact it ends with a preposition. Therefore I do believe you could have said it better, but as I stated before, "it's okay to let some things slide".

BOB- After reading what you said I think I can make the connection to my way of thinking. I just finished College English and since I am only 19 I probably do type faster then I can think. I am probably more used to informal writing due to my vast years with AOL Instant Messenger and that is most likely why minor grammatical mistakes have yet to boil my blood.

Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc

http://www.metoffpro.com

 

[Stella740pl]

Steve,

You see, it was said not in order to insult you but from what was already stated and restated in this forum. From my experience, this forum is the one where you might get picked on and torn to pieces for your slips. What I said was also backed by this forum's owner and moderator, CajunCenturion, so it's not my fault - please ask him if you don't it.

Besides, you know, English is not my first language, so I do what I can. Let's say, I put in my best effort.

And the last point. I don't believe that the fact that my sentence ends in preposition makes it an incorrect sentence. When I have time, I will search the Internet on the topic. I believe that I might find just as many expert opinions for it as against it; as I already found on some other language taboo and superstitions.

We already discussed the topic of dangling preposition in thread1256-822817. It finished it with the following anecdote: Winston Churchill, irritated with his secretary for changing the syntax in one of his letters, supposedly asserted: "This is the nonsense up with which I will not put."

Stella

 

[Stella740pl]

Well, I did find a missing word and a couple of wrongs and typos after I hit the button. At least I didn't do it on purpose.

 

[sbudzynski]

I'd say you do very well for not being native to the english language.

Let me know what you find with your search, I would love to prove my english professor wrong!

You in no way insulted me, so no need to apologize.

Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc

http://www.metoffpro.com

 

[BobRodes]

Ending a sentence with a preposition is a grammatical indiscretion up with which I will not put.

Bob

 

[BobRodes]

What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?



Bob

 

[BobRodes]

So, all kidding aside, the thing about prepositions ending sentences is somewhat pedantic, in that much common usage ignores the rule. The primary example given by most academe is with one preposition in a subordinate clause:
The woman, with whom I was involved, as opposed to the woman whom I was involved with. The first is considered correct usage. Interestingly, it is also more in line with word ordering in French, whereas the latter is more so with that of German. So, perhaps this prejudice goes back to the time of the Norman Conquest, taking on the speech patterns of the conqueror.

Now, sentences involving multiple prepositions can be very difficult to do this with...er...to do with this...er...with which multiple sentences are involved can be very difficult to do this...er....

Anyway, perhaps Mr. Budzynski will be so kind as to take the last sentence and reconstruct it according to the rules of his English professor, and see if the results are found satisfying.

That having been accomplished, perhaps Mr. Budzynski will then attempt to correct the sentence "language is what this forum is all about" to fall in line with appropriate preposition placement. Suggested examples could be

Language is that about which this forum is all.
It is language all about which this forum is.
Language is all about which this forum.

Of course, one could say "This forum is all about language" but that emphasizes the forum over language, rather than the reverse as the sentence does as written. As far as I'm concerned, sacrificing nuance for correctness's sake is a pretty good definition of pedantry. I won't do it, the world's greatest minds haven't done it, and I agree with Stella.



Bob

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> So, perhaps this prejudice goes back to the time of the Norman Conquest, taking on the speech patterns of the conqueror.
I think the rule has its roots in Latin where prepositions were required to preceed their nouns, thus they could never be at the end of a sentence. In Latin, prepositions dictate the case of the object noun, either accusative or ablative. The ending of the noun may be different between the two cases. That's why in Latin, it is prescribed that that prepositions must precede their objects in order to establish the proper case. However, that prescription is not necessary in English because prepositions in English do not establish case. That's why I believe then that ending a sentence with a preposition is more a matter of style than of grammar. However, even a preposition at the end of a sentence must have an object. The question, "Where are we going to?", is grammatically incorrect, not because it ends with a preposition, but because the preposition does not have an object. "Language is what this forum is about" is grammatically correct, because the preposition 'about' does have an object -- language.

For instance "Language is what this forum is all about."

In this forum, we prefer sentences to fragments.

I just finished College English and since I am only 19 I probably do type faster then I can think.

Rather than type, and then do your thinking, I suggest that you do your thinking, and then type.


Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[elanor]

That's why in Latin, it is prescribed that that prepositions must precede their objects in order to establish the proper case. However, that prescription is not necessary in English because prepositions in English do not establish case."
You're pretty close to the real reason it's a rule, there, Cajun! All early English grammar books were written in Latin, and Latin was so admired by the early grammarians that they imported Latin grammatical rules into English...despite the fact that it's clearly a different language. That's why we aren't supposed to split infinitives and end sentences with prepositions...because you can't do so in Latin!
Those guys were just keeping up with the Juliuses!

 

[SantaMufasa]

Thanks, Elanor, for a clear and concise explanation why it is bad to illiterately split an infinitive and why a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with. Have a star.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[chipperMDW]

I just finished College English and since I am only 19 I probably do type faster then I can think.

That illustrates how the computer may be the downfall of human language.

Back when people had to write by hand or use a typewriter, they had to think and plan before writing.

The computer frees us from that limitation. It is potentially a powerful composition tool that gives us the ability to transform our thoughts into words and then ogranize, rearrange, and edit them. With such power available, the average person should be able to compose masterpieces of literature.

Unfortunately, the average person seems to see the composition power of the computer and think, "Well, if make a typo, there's a backspace key."

They go from not caring about spelling to not caring about whether or not their sentences are formed correctly. Then, they don't care if a paragraph is coherent. Then, they don't care if the paper they wrote even says anything.

The mistakes get bigger and harder to correct with a backspace key.

If you really love langauge (or even just computers), I'd advise you to follow CC's advice and think before you type. If you do, then the relative speed of each will no longer matter.

I am probably more used to informal writing due to my vast years with AOL Instant Messenger and that is most likely why minor grammatical mistakes have yet to boil my blood.

It's important to realize why instant messaging is "allowed" to be less formal. If you send a message that your single-person audience misunderstands, he or she can always ask you for clarification. When making a forum post, you're often writing to many people, and you usually only get one shot at making your point.


When writing, you should also keep in mind your goal. Are you writing something because you want to convey information, or because you want to follow a prescriptive grammar?

When you're writing to convery information and you're faced with something like whether or not to put a preposition at the end of a sentence, and following a prescriptive grammar rule makes your goal harder to accomplish, then you question the rule, and perhaps ignore it.

If enough people find good reason to ignore the rule in enough cases, it won't be a rule after a while, anyway.


A prescriptive grammar is a tool for making yourself understandable. In many situations, failing to use that tool is inadvisable; some situations, however, call for alternate tools.

 

[Stella740pl]

Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the sentence everyone is quoting contain some punctuation marks? Say, like this:

I just finished College English; and since I am only 19, I probably do type faster then I can think.

Sorry, Steve Budzynski! (See, I told you about this forum. )

 

[ToniL]

I just finished College English; and since I am only 19, I probably do type faster then I can think.

I think this should be written:

I just finished College English, and since I'm only 19, I probably do type faster than I can think.

The use of a semi-colon in the first sentence acts as a conjunction, and therefore, does not require "and" to go with it. If a person wanted to use "and" to connect two sentences, use a comma and "and"...

Of course, I can get into the use of "then" vs "than", but I think we can all agree that "than" is applicable here...

I could be wrong, but this is the way I've always been taught...



Peace,
Toni L.

Windows reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.

 

[sbudzynski]

Further enhancing my point, we all make mistakes but it seems as though we tend focus too much detail toward the mistakes that we lose the main focus of the point.

Yall know what i be sayin? word, check it, i dont be makin mistakes yamean, i just be speakin a dialect you kids is unawares of.

So, in the immortal words of my roommate, "be easy, its all good"

by the way, i got a B in english due to my grammatical errors, oh well im a business major and i will continue to rely on spell check and my MLA handbook

Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc

http://www.metoffpro.com

 

[Stella740pl]

Toni,

...but I think we can all agree that "than" is applicable here...

Absolutely, I just didn't notice that one.

Steve,

...we tend focus too much detail toward the mistakes that we lose the main focus of the point.

And you are right, too.