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Time to change our philosophy. 6

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Sleidia

Technical User
May 4, 2001
1,284
FR
Again, the stupid way human beings "take care" of their creation
has brought nothing more than an enormous waste.

The internet could have been a very useful/powerful tool to help
people share ideas/projects that could make a better place for us
to live, but instead, what we got is another useless (or misused)
media clogged with stubborn and meaningless advertisings that
nobody would even want to read.

Yes, I've enough to see web pages that have only 1/4 of their space
filled with contents (I mean worthy information). You only get
banners, bigger than ever who suck your bandwidth and that you are
forced to read sometimes (layered ads). Everybody focus on terrorists
nowadays, but there is another kind of terrorism. The kind of
terrorists who don't want you do become smarter. They hijack the
knowledge and the great unused potential that people own.

First, we had the promise of radio. Because It became driven by
profit, it has become like a big channel that broadcasts mainly
the same stuff with the same ridiculous spoken ads.
Then, we had TV and it became worse. You have to eat your CMs. In
Australian TV, you get CMs every 10 minutes! Here, in France, you
have to bear big clusters of CMs (during almost 10/15 minutes) at
peak hours.

And now, the same stuff is happening to the internet.
Wherever you go, you are welcomed with pop-ups, gigantic banner ads,
and sneaky layered ads that make you do the only one thing possible:
leave the place. Even scientific sites (newscientist.com, space.com,
wired.com, etc...) have been rotten by this gangrene. There was a time
when only porno websites had the arrogance to throw pop-ups at your face.
Now, go to netscape's home page and see what happen.

How stupid are people who think sites visitors will click on a
banner ad??? People who sell/design/insert those banners would never
click on one of them in their private browsing experience. How can
spammers think people would click on an unwanted mail from some unknown
small stupid company to get a longer penis??

Here is what the internet looks like:
A very vast desert with a few human beings wandering. In this desert,
the number of signs (the ads) is 10 000 times larger than the number
of wandering people found in this desert. Unfortunately for those people,
signroads are scarce. They only know the well too much frequented places
but will hardly find the rare oasis of knowledge and interactivity they
might look for. Ironically, the guardians of this desert (us, web designers
and developpers) are either as lost as the other wanderers or pleased to
mislead others for money (editors of websites clogged by ads and spammers).

I have many personal projects I'm planning to upload in the future.
Of course, you have to make some profit to pay your hosting service and
to be able to get some food for your body. But I'll try to do it the
clever way in respect toward people who visit the site. I'm the one who
believes that you don't have to use banners if people think that what you
offer is interesting enough. Web masters want to make money the easy way
without even thinking they have to offer a challenging service that people
would be happy to use.

I also think that people should see the internet more like a tool than
a media. And some of them should think the internet is art. Why?
Many rich (or not so rich) people can pay thousands or millions of dollars
for a painting. Why not incitate sponsors ("mecenes" in french) to offer
some money to the creator of websites that may help humankind to gain help
or knowledge?

Nowadays, within one second, people can send a message thousands kilometers away.
But ironically, the easiest the information will spread, the meaningless the
information will become. We have to fix this problem quickly because future
technologies will make our everyday life unbearable if we go on this way (think about
wearable screen displays).

A last example: in the metro of Paris, we recently had plenty of flat screens
dispatched everywhere. They broadcast always the same endless loop of CMs.
They will never try to share with people rare thoughts or visions of better
ways to do things.





My Work...
...and More...
 
To Sleipnir214:
---------------
1) What you say is pure nonsense: how can it be democracy when all
the links you'll have to click through go to commercial sites full
of banners?? It's like having to chose between two rightists you
hate the most during a vote. Democracy is when you have the choice.

2) I've lived in places where you don't have to pay to piss. Japan
is a good example. I was pleased to see that there are a few civilized
countries. The main problem of people like you is that they think the
system they use is the best because they have experienced nothing else
and they have been brainwashed so badly for a long time. I'm quite surprized
to see how narrow minded can be people who are working in the IT field!
Instead, you should be open minded and willing to try many different
option for the sake of our future and for personal curiosity also.
I think you like imagination too because you can even imagine how it could
be to have web space without ads. How clear would be the horizon and how
efficiently we could focus on the most important things: knowledge and
interactivity between individuals. Don't you think it's more clever to ask
someone if he has any good idea/project instead of asking him to buy a
some silly stuff?

3) Your last question ("How will you pay for upgrades to servers and increases
in bandwidth while you devote yourselves to bohemian purity of esthetics? ") is
irelevant if you read carefully what I said about how it could run. This wouldn't
be the project of a single man/organization. Every site creator who like the
project could make is creation enter this webring-like web space under the condition
he don't have to use banners to pay for his hosting service. Again, existence of web
patronage would be a good help for such people who are willing to offer others
something very valuable but don't have a sufficient budget to do so.


To Schase:
------------
You like the way it is? Good on you.
But there should be a place for people who don't see thing the same way you do.
That's all I'm saying. There could be two types of internet: The one dedicated
to knowledge and humankind, the other one dedicated to consumerism with little
content.

To Svanel:
------------
What you say is scary!
Again, a guy who can't imagine properly what a website without ads would look like!
That's crazy really. No ads = no images??
What a weird idea. Are encyclopedias full of text only? Do I have to be a star or to
sell something in order to have a picture of me on a site?? Do I have to be naked on
this picture?

The more I reply to those messages, the more I'm understanding it doesn't worth a battle
because everybody is brainwashed.
How sad it is.

My Work...
...and More...
 
To Sleipnir:

Instead of "I think you like imagination too because you can even imagine how it could be to have web space without ads. " you should read:
"I think you lack imagination too because you can't even imagine how it could be to have web space without ads. "

Sorry for the fast and dirty english. My Work...
...and More...
 
enigma174 - Statements as prosaic as Cajun's "Get Real" and other patronising insults - You are correct. Although no offense was intended, that still was an inappropriate statement on my part, and I apoplogize to Sleida, and everyone else for its use.

I find it interesting, that of all of the people involved in this discussion, there is only one person who has any form of commercialization and advertising associated with them. Even when its pointed out that you actions are not consistent with your ideas, you rationalize your behavior (Again, my signature is for showing my technical/design skills. Not for selling anything.) and keep your signature in place. At the risk of being flamed by enigma174, I will nevertheless state that such behavior is hypocritical. You are continuing to practice the very behavior that you want to eliminate. It is very difficult to take your position seriously under these conditions.

Concerning the "cops", what if every user would have the ability to "red flag" a site that sells something?. I am a user and I am now "officially" red-flagging your signature because you are selling your own technical skills.

enigma174 - Building the experiment is fine, and I'm willing to participate. But I have no equipment or money to contribute. I do have some liminted amount of time. Lets get it started, and if I may, I suggest that you start a new thread, when you're ready, dedicated to this new experiment. In that thread we can start addressing the logistical questions already raised, and dealing with others as they arise.

On a side note, Sleida you made the following comment about sleipnir714 "I think you lack imagination too because you can't even imagine how it could be to have web space without ads. " I have known sleipnir714 for years, and I can assure you, the fact that he has trouble seeing a web space without ads is NOT a reflection of his imagination. He has an uncanny ability to think outside the box, and to make a broad generalization about his imagination because he disagrees with you on this one issue is way off base.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
"2) I've lived in places where you don't have to pay to piss. Japan is a good example. I was pleased to see that there are a few civilized countries." - Sleida

Ah, but you see you have paid, just not directly. Either the Japanese government provides them at taxpayer expense, or businesses provide them and pay for them either through higher prices or through the additional customers visiting them.

The reason we keep throwing the TANSTAAFL acronym around is because, while blue-sky "what-if" dreaming is great, you don't appear to want to acknowledge the fact that the commercialization of the internet has largely funded the internet, just as television advertising largely keeps the shows people enjoy on the air. I told you about PBS and .cn, did you check them out?

"The majority of people love to be treated like idiots, to wait for banner ads to disapear from the article they want to read..." - Sleida

I know of no one who loves banners, popups, or spam. What I've previously said is that if they think about it, they regard it as a necessary evil.

Don't get me wrong, I think your commercial-free webring idea is terrific, although I do have doubts that it can be maintained. What I'm taking exception to is how you seem to be complaining about automobile exhaust emissions as you drive your SUV down the road.
-Steve
 
To CajunCenturion:

Sincerely, the attacks concerning my signature on this thread
are 100% off-topic. I'm talking of buidling a web space free
of ads and narrowminded peope like you can't help focusing on
my signature without being able to provide pertinent comments
about the idea itself. There is an idea to develop, but the only
thing you manage to do is to prevent others to concentrate on this
idea by focusing on off-topic and futile things.

Now, you and me are using the consumerist side of the internet
(have you noticed the .com in the URL after the words tek-tips?).
Would the fact that I have a "commercial signature" on this forum
prevent me from talking about the project of building a new internet
beside the existing one? A new internet in which I would obey the
rules (no ads of any kind). Can't people who have used a system, change their mind
and try to design a different system totally the oposite of what they
knew before? Gorbatchev was a communist, wasn't he? Then, how can it
be possible that he started the Perestroika?
Think a little bit more please.

Although Sleipnir714 is your friend, you ignored his kind opinion:
"- I am not asking you to change your signature line...".

And sorry if I don't know him personally. His writings are the only things
I know from him and this is because of them that I made my opinion about
him. My Work...
...and More...
 
1. You cannot survive without money.
2. To have money, you must have an economy.
3. An economy requires consumers, therefore consumerism.
4. The degree of consumerism someone is willing to put up with is driven by the standard of living they want to maintain. (i.e. I need more money, you need more money, therefore the economy needs to be stronger, therefore there needs to be more consumer activity.....) In my case, the my minimum acceptable standared of living requires digital cable, a SUV, lots of toys and gadgets, a nice house, etc. This means I need to put up with a pretty heavy duty consumer economy to not only give me the chance to earn enough income to buy this stuff, but to have the stuff produced in the first place.
5. Everything has to be paid for somehow. Anyone is free to participate in the creation of a web area free of consumerism, but these same developers still need to make their own livings. There's nothing wrong with developing a consumerism free web area, but for the developers themselves, it can't be more than a side hobby, unless you find a rich patron to fund it.
Jeff
No matter how bad it is, it can always get worse ....
 
To SteveThe Geek (and Mastercracker also):
------------------------------------
What is the point in saying that someone had to pay to
allow people to have toilets for free?
This is such a common sense! Did you sincerely believe I wasn't
aware of that??? My goal was to explain you all the fact that we
have passed year 2001 but that our way of doing things didn't
make better individuals. Do you really think you have to absolutely
sell your soul if you want to create a project? Do ctrl+f and count
how many times the words "sponsor" or "patronage" were used.
Also, there could be people who have some power and who would believe
in such a project.

Again, web hosting has become cheap enough to allow people who have enough
time and will to build projects to publish their work.
Also, I'm not an integrist. I could use the current internet (small business)
to make some money, thus allowing me to build-up/participate to the
making of the new web space beside. Anyone who would like to participate could do
the same. Building the new web space doesn't mean you'd have to be in
quarantaine in it. Having/building cars doesn't prevent you from riding a horse
whenever you want.

[*] btw: this is Sleidia and not Sleida :)
cheers
My Work...
...and More...
 
Sleidia, I don't need imagination to see an internet with no ads. I've seen it already. I had a BITNET email address in the mid-80's, and my first SMTP email address in '93. In '93, the world wide web was about two years old, and there were about 1,000,000 total hosts in the internet. If you wanted to find information for research, you got good at gophersearch -- there were no useful engines until about '95. The browser of choice was Mosaic -- and the other choice was nothing.

I have seen the explosive growth and impact of the internet from very early on. And because of that I know the internet grew to its current complexity, size, and usefulness because of its commercial opportunities, not because some socialist dreamers constructed it out of thin air. The very commercialism you decry made the internet the valuable tool you wish to use today.

I'm not saying your idea of can't make a go of it. I wish you well. I am saying that to not acknowledge the very commercialism which seems to earn you a living is hypocritical. It's the equivalent of moving near and existing airport and then complaining about the noise.

And nobody ever said that you would have a perfect choice to vote for in every democratic process. In fact, the only thing the democratic process guarantees is that you will find something to vote for that offends you the least. ______________________________________________________________________
Never forget that we are
made of the stuff of stars
 
Sleidia - Sincerely, the attacks concerning my signature on this thread are 100% off-topic.. It is my understanding that the topic of discussion is the inclusion of commercialization and advertising on web pages. How can you say that your signature line, which is comprised of personal work references not be intended as a method of self-advertisement, considering that Tek-Tips is not a place for advertising goods and services. The threads and post of Tek-Tips are supposed to be free of ads, and that is pertinent to the discussion. The fact the you have a "commercial signature" does in no way prevent you from being a productive member of this or any other discussion. But such a signature is not within the intended framework of Tek-Tips. My suggestion that we prototype your suggestion of a web-free space by adhereing to the existing Tek-Tips philosphy of non-commercialization of the site contents, does not, at least as of yet, have much support from you. If you do not believe that this is current and existing philosophy of Tek-Tips - then please read the last line in the Link To This Forum! box at the bottom of each and every thread. As I stated earlier, it is difficult to take your proposal seriously when you have difficulty adhering the similar policies on existing sites.

Although Sleipnir714 is your friend, you ignored his kind opinion: "- I am not asking you to change your signature line...". It was I who made that statement. The purpose behind that was to give you the chance to voluntarily change it, which you have chosen not to do. In fact, our disagreement of the topicality of your signature is a perfect case in point of one of the difficulties of your proposal that I mentioned in an earlier post. That being, who is going to decide just what is and/or is not appropriate, and in the event of disagreement, how will the question be arbitrated? I then specifically "red-flagged" your signature, in compliance with your suggestion that the users of the space be provided with such ability. Again, who will now arbitrate the disagreement? Within the context of your proposed space, how would you recommend that this situation be dealt with?

Finally, disagreement between professionals is a healthy thing, and leads to good solid discussion, provided the discussion is on the issues. There is no reason, nor is it productive to get personal. Because I disagree with you on this issue, you have stated that I am narrow-minded. You have made broad generalizations about others as well, based on specific comments related to specific issues.

I am more than willing to continue to discuss the issues, the related pros and cons, and the practical aspects thereof, but only if the discussion remains professional, and is on the issues, and only the issues. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
To Enigma174:
--------------
Sorry for getting back to you so late. I was too busy
arguing with the ones devoted to materialism who think
they live in the most wonderful economy ever designed.

I hope you've read the others posts on this thread and
would be pleased to know your opinion.

Concerning the last thing you said about your means, in
my opinion this kind of project can be done only if many
individuals first build web sites full of knowledge, free
services and without ads or commercial links. The second
thing to do would be to contact all the owners/managers of such
currently existing web sites and to offer them to join
together in order to form some kind of web-ring.
And then, others could join the dance and create new web sites
that would share the same spirit. My Work...
...and More...
 
"I was too busy arguing with the ones devoted to materialism who think they live in the most wonderful economy ever designed." - Sleidia

You misrepresent me and my thoughts. Discussing a point does not make me (nor any other poster here) devoted to materialism (except maybe for MasterRacker *grin*).

"What is the point in saying that someone had to pay to
allow people to have toilets for free? This is such a common sense! Did you sincerely believe I wasn't aware of that???" - Sleidia

My point is the same one I use when people complain about high taxes and are the first to object when their favorite government program is cut - "free" is always relative. Characterizing a society as being civilized or not based on who pays for public toilets is disingenuous at best.

Since I dislike the flinging about of labels at people who disagree, I won't continue participating in this thread.
-Steve
 
We've always been talking seriously. In a previous post, I already agreed to participate in the test, but I still have some reservations about a number of pracitcal and administrative issues that have yet to be addressed. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 


To SteveTheGeek:
-------------------
I should have paid more attention to what you wrote previously ("I am more than
willing to continue to discuss the issues, the related pros and cons, and the
practical aspects thereof, but only if the discussion remains professional,
and is on the issues, and only the issues.").

Sorry for that.
I admit I was quite disturbed to see so many people refusing to aknowledge
the fact that we don't need such big and numerous banner ads in websites.

In a society where public toilets aren't free, people who don't have enough
money will piss on the walls, in the streets, everywhere. This isn't what I
call civilization. I've seen it many times and I can't feel proud of my country
when I see that. I've pointed the public toilets, but also, I could have spoken
about the public baths available everywhere in Japan. You can stay clean for
little money and don't have to own an appartment like in France.
People should be given the basics (education, dignity, etc) for little money.

Knocking out people with commercial messages every minute of the day won't make
them more intelligent.
If a society don't allow people to have the means to become more civilized, then
you get a nasty uncultured society that would eventually kill to get the last
pair of Nike (because they think they can "just do it" :) ).
Giving people tools to become more clever in peace without the noise of
consumerism.

When you're tired of the city, you go to the country side right? The same should be
applicable to the internet. When you're tired of the noise, you go to the
peaceful place where you can give food to your brain.
Inside a library, you're not allowed to make noise. The same would go for the
new web-space.


To CajunCenturion:
-------------------
Sorry, but I think I gave all the possible answers to the issue you're talking about.
Could you explain?



Anyway, thanks to all of you for taking time to give your feedback (even if I was quite
disapointed!)
 
The questions that I and others have posed in earlier threads that I'm still not clear on the resolution would include

Who will establish want is and is not acceptable within this space?

What would the penalties be, and who would administer the penalties, for failure to adhere to the policies?

Do you want to see this space regulated? If so, by whom?
Who is going to police this safe area, and provide policy enforcement?
To these closely related questions you stated Concerning the "cops", what if every user would have the ability to "red flag" a site that sells something?. Let's suppose that an item of content is "red flagged" by one of the site users. But the offending party disagreed with that assessment. We now have a disagreement on the appropriateness of some item of content.
Who will arbitrate this dispute?

What would the penalties be, and who would administer the penalties, for failure to comply with the arbitrator's decision?

Your proposal included a web-ring with multiple sites.
Who will be responsible for domain registration/administration?
Who will be responsible for server maintenance (hardware and software)?
Who is going to provide the server space? How much will be provided?

All of this really can be summed up in two questions - How will it be paid for, and how will be protected from misuse? Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Sleidia, I can't acknowledge what I do not agree with. The banner ads seem to offend your esthetics. They do not mine. And you have never offered the thesis before now that you thought their presence was a limit to the quality of world culture -- let me make a rebuttal to that idea further down.

Neither you nor I can say what is esthetically "right" on the open internet. If you think you can make your "ad-free" enterprise successful, more power to you. Please try. Just don't expect me to support a thesis which has no proof of success beyond your fervent protestations.

CajunCenturion and I have both asked the question which you continue to ignore: How do you pay for it?

I and several others have tried to point out that nothing in the world is free. Either you explicitly pay for the use of the toilets at use, or you implicitly pay for use of the toilets whether you use it or not -- in taxes. Same for those baths in Japan. I argue that it is more efficient and fair to require users to pay -- no one who does not use the facility has to pay for it, and the funds to run the toilet are not run through the inherent inefficiencies of a government bureaucracy. Likewise the presence of ads allow organizations to provide information to people without explicit payment, making the information accessible to people who could not afford to pay for it. Doesn't that increase the level of civilization just as would "free" toilets?

And I'm not claiming that the ads will make someone more intelligent, nor do I believe has anyone else. That is hyperbole on your point and I have disregarded it as specious.
______________________________________________________________________
Never forget that we are
made of the stuff of stars
 

To CajunCenturion:
-------------------
He are all the answers to your questions:

1) The creator of the web ring would settle the rules
which can be contained in a short sentence as follow:
"No linking to any commercial website in any form and
no commercial banners even if they don't have hyperlinks."

2) Not obeying this simple rule would make your site be
out of the web ring.

3) Anybody could "redflag" a website reluctant to obey.
A redflaged web site would be automatically removed
from the database of members who participate to the
project under the condition that a certain number of
people had redflaged it.

4) In case of dispute/disagreement, the creator of the
project should be contacted in order for him to look at the
website concerned and see if it breaks the rule.

5) The creator of the project wouldn't manage anything related
to domain name registration, hardware or such. Each owner of
a website is responsible for those things.
Let's say you create a website that helps kids to learn how to
read. You do it yourself (design, programming, domain name
registration, search of a hosting service) with or without the financial
help of a sponsor who won't ask to be advertised on your site.
It would be perfect if the creator of the web ring could connect such
web masters to such sponsors (this would be the hardest task, I agree,
but it would be unfair to say that it's impossible without trying).
As I said before, such talented web masters may already have some
web business running somewhere or would have powerful personal connections
or even own unused disk space on some server (like Enigma said.
See posts above).
There could even be web hosting companies willing to participate and who
would donate a few gigas of disk space. Why not if they love the idea?

6) The creator of the project could also connect such web masters to
eachother in order to allow them to share the same servers or even
to join forces if possible. This could lower the costs.

7) What kinf of misuse are you thinking about?


To Sleipnir214:
-------------------
1) I've never said anything about esthetics!
I complained about the lack of content caused by the poor space dedicated
to it on pages. Too much useless garbage and lack of knowledge.
Don't make me say things I never said!

2) I've always thought that advertising on the web was a pain. But there was
a time when it was OK. Only a big banner on the top of the page in general.
But as I said before, people are getting crazy and they don't mind putting
them all over the pages. I agree that advertising allowed us to have cheap servers and fast bandwidth. But now that it's done, why not adding
a new feature to the internet: a zone free of advertising and dedicated
to knowledge.

3) I wouldn't need any proof of success before starting such a project.
There is almost nothing to loose. A little bit of time. That's all.
My life doesn't depend on the success of such a thing, you know.
Furthermore, I could start it in 1 year, two or three...etc...

4) Concerning money, see above.
 
Sounds like a decent framework for which to get started. enigma174 has graciously volunteered to donate a server and space to get started, and has started another thread in this forum dedicated specifically to the project. I wish you well. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Sleidia, servers and bandwidth aren't something that you pay for once. They are recurring expenses for which you must pay every day. And the quality of service a high-usage commercial site requires can't be provided by desktop-level hardware and a DSL connection -- it requires more powerful and therefore more expensive technologies. The ads, therefore, are likely to stay. Likewise the government can't tax you only once and let the poor can piss indoors indefinitely -- the government must continually tax you to continually pay for upkeep on the toilets.

I have also never found a site which pushes out the information I need for the sake of ads. They may worsen the signal-to-noise ratio, but to date I've never had the signal replaced by the noise. It's a self-limiting reaction: if the site becomes unusable, then no one visits or buys from that site. Then the site owners must improve the site's signal-to-noise ratio to get the business back.

It would behoove you to check in with enigma174 -- he's started a new thread in this forum to support the enterprise and seems to be under the impression you're ready to start now.

In any regard, I wish you luck. To quote Robert Browning, "A man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?" ______________________________________________________________________
Never forget that we are
made of the stuff of stars
 
Ok, i've started a new thread named "A zone without adds", lets put some practical suggestions there. I'll start on a website after work tonight. Also anyone that wants to start setting things up email me at addfree@corbis.co.nz and we'll get sume stuff sorted.

Ok, with that done, back to the debate!

sleipnir214,
you're right to say that nothing in this world is free, but equating that solely to money is an oversimplification. Money is a means to an ends, and should never be the focal point of any economic argument. To get to the point, we need to look at the productive forces - that it, the amount of effort, or labour, involved in making somehting. This is especially important when it comes to user pays, since it brings socal relations into the picture. A group of workers in a team can accomplish far more than if they worked individually, and it is this cooperative aspect of production which gives birth to civilisation. It is in this spirit of cooperation that essential services such as healthcare and public toilets, which benifit society as a whole (through less people to catch the flu from, and less drunkards pissing on your car) are paid for by the cooperative means of society and prevent that society from degenerating into savagery.
Capitalism in general tends to treat its subjects as ad individual producers, and pits one against another in a clear contridiction to the reality of a cooperative workplace - this can be seen in various units of scale, from competing for a promotion to global warfare, to the user pays versus progressive taxation debate.

So with this in mind, we need to ask, rather than how much will the add free zone cost, but rather how valuable will it be???

Sleidia,
I'm a bit aprehensive about your idea of a total ban on linking to comercial sites - lets not segrigate it too much, rather i think perhaps a ban on imaged links would suffice - that way we wouldn't prevent, say, linking to a referenced news article, or other information source.

One final point, to those that speak of hypocracy - i challenge anyone to go even a week without engaguing in consumerism. We live in a consumer society and we cannot avoid it. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to fight against it.

--cb
 
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