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thinking about getting linux 3
- Thread starter sweetlew
- Start date
stefanwagner
Programmer
So - what shall it mean: 'still at version 5.0'.
You may compare lfs 5.0 to lfs 4.0 and SuSE 9.0 to 8.0 or RedHat 4.4 to 4.3 or the linux-kernel 2.6.1 to 2.6.5 and so on, but not lfs 5.0 to Win2003 1.0 or SuSE 9.0.
'Still 5.0' could mean: They are at version 5.0 since Feb. 2001 - perhaps the project is dead. But 5.0 seems to be from Oct. 2003 - and 5.1pre1 is from Feb 2004 - so I wouldn't worry about that.
You may compare lfs 5.0 to lfs 4.0 and SuSE 9.0 to 8.0 or RedHat 4.4 to 4.3 or the linux-kernel 2.6.1 to 2.6.5 and so on, but not lfs 5.0 to Win2003 1.0 or SuSE 9.0.
'Still 5.0' could mean: They are at version 5.0 since Feb. 2001 - perhaps the project is dead. But 5.0 seems to be from Oct. 2003 - and 5.1pre1 is from Feb 2004 - so I wouldn't worry about that.
well you guys are very much into linux and its been only a short time that I got into the linux enviroment
unfortunately because mr. linus has release his open source for free to everybody; alot of flavors of linux is now out there.
he could definately beat Mr. Bill gates even he was behind him at early 90s, however he's mind was so good to make something for free but free is not always the best.
I am tellling you my friend, as another newbie which has just a little bit of experience in linux and I have over 13 years computer experience.
linux is just stupid to learn.
I mean specially if you come from Mr. Bill just like me. many things is MS-DOS like or MS-DOS is unix like and linux too so thats why.
but you will have headache on libraries and you must definaately have programming experience (ONLY C/C++ is your heaven in linux, the rest is aditional)
once I saw a movie that a woman-hacker was talking and said : "making everything userfriendly is push user to care less for security."
but I would like to add something to it: "make things less userfriendly is just wasting time"
last three days I spend my whole days to install a single software on my box and it was fail all the time.
unfortunately because mr. linus has release his open source for free to everybody; alot of flavors of linux is now out there.
he could definately beat Mr. Bill gates even he was behind him at early 90s, however he's mind was so good to make something for free but free is not always the best.
I am tellling you my friend, as another newbie which has just a little bit of experience in linux and I have over 13 years computer experience.
linux is just stupid to learn.
I mean specially if you come from Mr. Bill just like me. many things is MS-DOS like or MS-DOS is unix like and linux too so thats why.
but you will have headache on libraries and you must definaately have programming experience (ONLY C/C++ is your heaven in linux, the rest is aditional)
once I saw a movie that a woman-hacker was talking and said : "making everything userfriendly is push user to care less for security."
but I would like to add something to it: "make things less userfriendly is just wasting time"
last three days I spend my whole days to install a single software on my box and it was fail all the time.
sleipnir214
Programmer
I'm going to have to go with Chacalinc on this one -- it sounds more like user error than anything.
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what I know that "apt-get" will go ahead and install whatever package you request from internet (probably debian servers) and it will download whatever packages it is require which have optimized by debian fella or original develors or volunteers, but does microsoft optimize all software and packages?
But:
I am talking about whole LINUX enviroment, debian is based on Linux kernel and nothing else. one thing for sure you have on linux platform which is all the time modified by users or companies and they make they flavor for linux but they're still based on the kernel released for public.
AND There's no well organized development on linux platform, of course there's neat developments packages but as long as they're not organized there's not reliable platform for desktop use, of course it gives much flexibility on servers and specially enterprise servers and there's where microsoft got beaten already.
And of course that is smart idea for to have APT-GET but still cover small boundry, and its only on debian and not other platforms, if installation packaging standards on linux improves and international standard define for that it will be such a good, I understand that RPM could get himself inside other linux flavors but its still need to be work out and its far from "Something for beginner users."
as a person I would not recommend any IT person to change its platform to linux (unix like platforms) unless
or: You really want to save your money.
or: You really have good computer/programming skills and good understanding of how OS and compilers works
or: You need flexible servers for very large scale enterprise
I basically had no reason to switch to linux unless I wanted to make very small wireless ISP for my home area which there's no broadband, and until now I could manage to install a router and radius with php-based authentication and AAA stuff, soon I must have a good mail server (which I havn't yet). if anything happen to my server I don't know how to fix it at short time (Yet) until I know EVERYTHING about linux. and everything means all of linux and programming and shell scripting.
what I am trying to say is point of view of someone who knows some basic in computer and starting to learn linux to someone else who still have started yet and just asking for ALTERNATIVE for windows.
and UNFORTUNATELY I have too tell this fella there's not such a ALTERNATIVE for Microsoft Windows based kernel, unless you may like to use WINE and wine still not finished and may not support every software new version which calling new API that still haven't define inside WINE, it may work out for you if you only use IE, PHOTOSHOP, WORD, EXCEL... but I don't think you can have hope for every single software to run under linux.
hope it helps
But:
I am talking about whole LINUX enviroment, debian is based on Linux kernel and nothing else. one thing for sure you have on linux platform which is all the time modified by users or companies and they make they flavor for linux but they're still based on the kernel released for public.
AND There's no well organized development on linux platform, of course there's neat developments packages but as long as they're not organized there's not reliable platform for desktop use, of course it gives much flexibility on servers and specially enterprise servers and there's where microsoft got beaten already.
And of course that is smart idea for to have APT-GET but still cover small boundry, and its only on debian and not other platforms, if installation packaging standards on linux improves and international standard define for that it will be such a good, I understand that RPM could get himself inside other linux flavors but its still need to be work out and its far from "Something for beginner users."
as a person I would not recommend any IT person to change its platform to linux (unix like platforms) unless
or: You really want to save your money.
or: You really have good computer/programming skills and good understanding of how OS and compilers works
or: You need flexible servers for very large scale enterprise
I basically had no reason to switch to linux unless I wanted to make very small wireless ISP for my home area which there's no broadband, and until now I could manage to install a router and radius with php-based authentication and AAA stuff, soon I must have a good mail server (which I havn't yet). if anything happen to my server I don't know how to fix it at short time (Yet) until I know EVERYTHING about linux. and everything means all of linux and programming and shell scripting.
what I am trying to say is point of view of someone who knows some basic in computer and starting to learn linux to someone else who still have started yet and just asking for ALTERNATIVE for windows.
and UNFORTUNATELY I have too tell this fella there's not such a ALTERNATIVE for Microsoft Windows based kernel, unless you may like to use WINE and wine still not finished and may not support every software new version which calling new API that still haven't define inside WINE, it may work out for you if you only use IE, PHOTOSHOP, WORD, EXCEL... but I don't think you can have hope for every single software to run under linux.
hope it helps
debian is based on Linux kernel and nothing else.
What is windows? is not windows based on a kernel?
put the source code of windows kernel, what you get? several Windows distros
"AND There's no well organized development on linux platform" say that to Linus Torval, what's about red hat and SuSE? they are corporations as Microsoft, not fundations.
And of course that is smart idea for to have APT-GET but still cover small boundry, and its only on debian and not other platforms..
try apt-get in fedora (from red-hat).. it works. SuSE has a tools apt-get like (yast if I do remember), and several distros are working on it.
You really have good computer/programming skills and good understanding of how OS and compilers works
How can you learn linux if you don't dare? If you want to learn C, pay for that, do you want to learn "Visual somthing" pay for the license, pay pay pay... what's about GNU C/C++? free... fortunatelly is for free both Linux and Windows, Pascal? must pay... etc.
I basically had no reason to switch to linux unless I wanted to make very small wireless ISP for my home area
I don't know why IBM in their Mainframe S/390 put linux, where biggest banking, telecom, etc. trust all their data and computing. Why Oracle has Oracle Data Base and Oracle Internet Application Server for Linux?
but I don't think you can have hope for every single software to run under linux.
Take a llok to: (sorry, it's in spanish)
codecref, I'm not telling you that windows is bad, I tell you that Linux is great and, beleive it or not, Linux is the future.. may be there are not too much users today with linux at home or workstation, but if you think about, with the firsts PC, how many user knew DOS?
What is windows? is not windows based on a kernel?
put the source code of windows kernel, what you get? several Windows distros
"AND There's no well organized development on linux platform" say that to Linus Torval, what's about red hat and SuSE? they are corporations as Microsoft, not fundations.
And of course that is smart idea for to have APT-GET but still cover small boundry, and its only on debian and not other platforms..
try apt-get in fedora (from red-hat).. it works. SuSE has a tools apt-get like (yast if I do remember), and several distros are working on it.
You really have good computer/programming skills and good understanding of how OS and compilers works
How can you learn linux if you don't dare? If you want to learn C, pay for that, do you want to learn "Visual somthing" pay for the license, pay pay pay... what's about GNU C/C++? free... fortunatelly is for free both Linux and Windows, Pascal? must pay... etc.
I basically had no reason to switch to linux unless I wanted to make very small wireless ISP for my home area
I don't know why IBM in their Mainframe S/390 put linux, where biggest banking, telecom, etc. trust all their data and computing. Why Oracle has Oracle Data Base and Oracle Internet Application Server for Linux?
but I don't think you can have hope for every single software to run under linux.
Take a llok to: (sorry, it's in spanish)
codecref, I'm not telling you that windows is bad, I tell you that Linux is great and, beleive it or not, Linux is the future.. may be there are not too much users today with linux at home or workstation, but if you think about, with the firsts PC, how many user knew DOS?
stefanwagner
Programmer
codecref:
You claim to run MS-apps on linux, and bemoan, only few will run with wine.
Thinking about this in a binary way is more or less ignorant.
Do gimp, mozilla, openOffice run on Windows?
Of course not.
Stop - there are programs with these names, but they aren't binary the same.
And there is a cygwin to run linux-programs from win.
But without emulator, a program will not run on both (unless using java).
The baddest approach of linux is, getting similar to windows. Intendet to make movement from ms to linux more easy, it reduces linux to a gratis-os.
I have seen linux-distributions, which don't install 'bc'.
The main advantages of linux towards windows are - in my opinion - these:
- very flexible, customizable
- open source
- compatibility to unix-standards
You may compile mozilla for linux, optimized for speed or size, running on a 486, 586, 686 and dual-pentiums, with or without debugging enabled and a much more.
Of course this is beyound the level of most WinUsers. So they only get one IE - everybody the same.
If they don't handle complex issues - no wonder their installations are simple.
If you buy a pc with win and word and photohop, it will work right out of the box.
But if the installation of some hard- or software get's problematic, you're mostly left alone.
I remember having Windowses, with funny 'MSN' and 'AOL' icons, and I wasn't allowed to get rid of them.
I got rid of this Windows - great luck
Word is bestknown dissertation-killer, why should you run it? Why install wine and buy word, if you may use LaTeX, OpenOffice.Writer or Kword?
If a user spends 8 h in learning a new Wordprocessor, he will mostly know 95% of the functions he needs. If he wants to use a Word-emulator, -clone or Word-on-wine, he will import all the problems of word.
The customers of windows are low-cost masses.
Linux has no customers, only users.
Linux doesn't depend on users - it depends on developers.
Therefore it is a developers system.
Of course it's nice, if everything is userfriendly and simple. But flying a helicopter isn't simple.
And I don't want linux to become a tricycle.
(turning 180° and flying away....schrepp schrepp schrepp)
You claim to run MS-apps on linux, and bemoan, only few will run with wine.
Thinking about this in a binary way is more or less ignorant.
Do gimp, mozilla, openOffice run on Windows?
Of course not.
Stop - there are programs with these names, but they aren't binary the same.
And there is a cygwin to run linux-programs from win.
But without emulator, a program will not run on both (unless using java).
The baddest approach of linux is, getting similar to windows. Intendet to make movement from ms to linux more easy, it reduces linux to a gratis-os.
I have seen linux-distributions, which don't install 'bc'.
The main advantages of linux towards windows are - in my opinion - these:
- very flexible, customizable
- open source
- compatibility to unix-standards
You may compile mozilla for linux, optimized for speed or size, running on a 486, 586, 686 and dual-pentiums, with or without debugging enabled and a much more.
Of course this is beyound the level of most WinUsers. So they only get one IE - everybody the same.
If they don't handle complex issues - no wonder their installations are simple.
If you buy a pc with win and word and photohop, it will work right out of the box.
But if the installation of some hard- or software get's problematic, you're mostly left alone.
I remember having Windowses, with funny 'MSN' and 'AOL' icons, and I wasn't allowed to get rid of them.
I got rid of this Windows - great luck
Word is bestknown dissertation-killer, why should you run it? Why install wine and buy word, if you may use LaTeX, OpenOffice.Writer or Kword?
If a user spends 8 h in learning a new Wordprocessor, he will mostly know 95% of the functions he needs. If he wants to use a Word-emulator, -clone or Word-on-wine, he will import all the problems of word.
The customers of windows are low-cost masses.
Linux has no customers, only users.
Linux doesn't depend on users - it depends on developers.
Therefore it is a developers system.
Of course it's nice, if everything is userfriendly and simple. But flying a helicopter isn't simple.
And I don't want linux to become a tricycle.
(turning 180° and flying away....schrepp schrepp schrepp)
well I haven't tried but I've seen mozilla and open officeoffice version for windows, I really dont like try but you may install following links which officially announced from developer and I believe they might have known what to use to compile best at best win32 binary optimzation.
about advantage have no OBJECTION and I absoluately agree with you.
but not every person that working (USING) computer knows how to compile even to optimize, 99% percent of computer users doesn't know Computer Programming and they don't understand C language to know why it needs library.
so which one is cheaper to you?
Spend 500 dollar on your softwares or learn linux and stuff for 3 years to recompile softwares the way you like?
I don't really like to fight ! I am converting to linux and I hope I can easily get rid of windows soon, but these are facts that we must accept.
and by the way , did I Recommend to use WINE? I just said even if you want to use its not gonna be updated because of API issues.
More than 90 percent of computer users rather an operating system that can learn FAST and EASIER rather than be rather than be ONLY FLEXIBLE, if its not the FACT why microsoft sell more than 50 billion dollars a year?
>Chacalinc
If Red Hat and SuSe are considered as INTERNATION DEVELOPMENT STANDARD, why would companies such as Macromedia and Adobe wouldn't like to release none of their product (except pdf viewer) under Linux? the answer is the FACT.
about the rest of things you just wrote, you absolutely haven't got my POINT. please read my post again. thats not in spanish however not a very well written english from none-english person. (For example I have recommend sweetlew to use LINUX for VERY LARGE ENTERPRISE SERVERS which is why IBM and blah blah use Linux for their servers)
I Hope I could be clear that I am not trying to force my opinions in my short-time experience which I believe he will have to deal with them.
I do respect your all opinions.
Seyed Mohammad
about advantage have no OBJECTION and I absoluately agree with you.
but not every person that working (USING) computer knows how to compile even to optimize, 99% percent of computer users doesn't know Computer Programming and they don't understand C language to know why it needs library.
so which one is cheaper to you?
Spend 500 dollar on your softwares or learn linux and stuff for 3 years to recompile softwares the way you like?
I don't really like to fight ! I am converting to linux and I hope I can easily get rid of windows soon, but these are facts that we must accept.
and by the way , did I Recommend to use WINE? I just said even if you want to use its not gonna be updated because of API issues.
More than 90 percent of computer users rather an operating system that can learn FAST and EASIER rather than be rather than be ONLY FLEXIBLE, if its not the FACT why microsoft sell more than 50 billion dollars a year?
>Chacalinc
If Red Hat and SuSe are considered as INTERNATION DEVELOPMENT STANDARD, why would companies such as Macromedia and Adobe wouldn't like to release none of their product (except pdf viewer) under Linux? the answer is the FACT.
about the rest of things you just wrote, you absolutely haven't got my POINT. please read my post again. thats not in spanish however not a very well written english from none-english person. (For example I have recommend sweetlew to use LINUX for VERY LARGE ENTERPRISE SERVERS which is why IBM and blah blah use Linux for their servers)
I Hope I could be clear that I am not trying to force my opinions in my short-time experience which I believe he will have to deal with them.
I do respect your all opinions.
Seyed Mohammad
sleipnir214
Programmer
codecref:
You don't have to know programming to compile a program from source. The "configure...make...make install" cycle is easy enough that I last week taught a liberal-arts major how to do it.
Macromedia supports Linux. You can buy ColdFusion to run with Apache on Linux.
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You don't have to know programming to compile a program from source. The "configure...make...make install" cycle is easy enough that I last week taught a liberal-arts major how to do it.
Macromedia supports Linux. You can buy ColdFusion to run with Apache on Linux.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
sleipnir214
Programmer
And I just looked at Adobe's site. Adobe sells its Acrobat Distiller for Linux. But you don't need it -- most Linux distributions come with Ghostscript, which has PDF output filters.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
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TANSTAAFL!!
sleipnir214
Programmer
codecref:
I'm sorry. I just realized that you might have been talking about Macromedia Flash developer tools.
If so, you're right: the Flash developer tools are not available on Linux. This article, however seems to indicate that Macromedia is going to rectify that lapse.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
I'm sorry. I just realized that you might have been talking about Macromedia Flash developer tools.
If so, you're right: the Flash developer tools are not available on Linux. This article, however seems to indicate that Macromedia is going to rectify that lapse.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!
TANSTAAFL!!
A Test.
For a test I installed Red Hat enterprise AS3, Red Hat 9, Mandrake 9.1, The latest Debian and Suse pro 9.0. They are all installed on seperate drives. After all the msg's in this forum, I wanted to find out which is the better os for my private use. Well from all the test's I were doing I would myself select Suse. This was the only distro which recognised all my hardware. I do agree it is to much like MS Windows for my liking but it would be a good choice for a beginner. The installation is very easy etc. The other distros all had some sort of problems with recognising the hardware or giving problems with the boot sectors. Also the upgrading through Yast was fully automated and very smooth. The test's are not finished and I will advise further before I remove all the Os's and boot up again with my Sun Solaris. Regards
Jurgen
For a test I installed Red Hat enterprise AS3, Red Hat 9, Mandrake 9.1, The latest Debian and Suse pro 9.0. They are all installed on seperate drives. After all the msg's in this forum, I wanted to find out which is the better os for my private use. Well from all the test's I were doing I would myself select Suse. This was the only distro which recognised all my hardware. I do agree it is to much like MS Windows for my liking but it would be a good choice for a beginner. The installation is very easy etc. The other distros all had some sort of problems with recognising the hardware or giving problems with the boot sectors. Also the upgrading through Yast was fully automated and very smooth. The test's are not finished and I will advise further before I remove all the Os's and boot up again with my Sun Solaris. Regards
Jurgen
sleipnir214
Programmer
I'm sorry, did you say something coherent? All I heard were the deranged mutterings of an unhinged mind.
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TANSTAAFL!!
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TANSTAAFL!!
![[tongue]](/data/assets/smilies/tongue.gif "[tongue] [tongue]")
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