The future may be bright- but I miss the good old days! 18

[guestgulkan]

Take me back to the 1980's when engineers really were engineers.
Computers were new, and you could still go down to
Maplins for a packet of discrete electronic components.
Assembly language was the thing
Ethernet? About 10 people the world knew what that was.
It was like the pioneering days of the old west.

Now, engineers have been reduced to simple 'black box' changers and any half-wit can become an engineer or programmer.

I suppose it's all in the name of progress, but for me the fun and personal job satisfaction has gone.

 

[manarth]

I asked: "Do you really think the world of computers should be restricted to those with the time / inclination to study IT in depth?"
AIXSPadmin says : "For a home user balancing their checkbook or playing a game or surfing the internet, NO. To business and government and education, YES."

Why? I can see that an IT illiterate handling sensitive data / technology in a government / business context would be out of depth...

Users can only be trusted as far as their capability - if someone clicks the delete button, a message pops up saying "This will permanently delete this information - are you sure you wish to delete this file?" and the user clicks Yes, we all know who to blame.
And it's not IT illiteracy - it's the absence of sense.

Even in an ideal world, where essential O/S files cannot be deleted, the user could still delete a data file containing vital business data.
Some people, you just can't help

At the moment, there isn't an O/S or IT system good enough to withstand attack by the most obstinate fool - the foolish will always win.
Which means at the moment, we should only entrust sensitive systems to those trained in handling them - i.e. IT pro's.

Having said that, I think the biggest problem is the complete absence of common sense. I've had people ring me up to ask how they can recover a file they've deleted. I tell them to look in the recycle bin. They tell me they've emptied it.
IF YOU LIKED THE FILE THAT MUCH, WHY DID YOU DELETE IT???
well, rant over.

moral: if you put work into the hands of the incapable, don't come running when the big bad wolf starts huffing and puffing.
(darn, did I just reverse my stance completely? I have no idea...)

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? here's a good place to start: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[AIXSPadmin]

uh-huh. whatever.

 

[manarth]

To make what I said a bit clearer, ;-)

I support windows-clickers in a home environment, I support windows-clickers in offices, in government, and in education.

However, I don't think servers are ready to be run by windows-clickers. Command line interfaces still have a role to play in administering / running networks, which means the adminstrator should be capable of using this.

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[Grenage]

Well I guess Windows is Windows, and Unix is Unix.

Windows is great for your casual desktop user, computer illiterate or not most people can pick up the basics of a word package.

When it comes to Network administration, obviously having the skill is essential. You don't need to know every command line function as there are plenty of programs with nice GUI's to help you there, sure it's not as efficient but it gets you by fine.

 

[gregor weertman]

There is nothing wrong with window clickers.
I use the windows myself.
Windows are great.

I think, when you are a system administrator and don’t know how to program batch files, you are really missing some important knowledge.

Batch files spare me dozens of manual handlings each day. So this is the fastest way for me.

My experience with trainee’s and colleague’s is, even when they have good networking and ms-window knowledge, when it comes to ms-dos batch programs they have a problem.

Personally I never met an ms-window system operator who knew how to program batch files.
I mean, someone who knows about errorlevel and shift.
Maybe I should look harder.


Regards Gregor.


Gregor.Weertman@mailcity.com

 

[DCCoolBreeze]

This is a pretty cool forum! I love the posts! Here is my input

1. IT classes need to go back to the basics. Even though most people do not use or need assembly. Learning assembly helps the programmer/technican truly understand how the computer thinks. This makes the programmer a more productive coder and troublshooter. I have seen countless errors in applications that should have never been there. These errors take money to repair and cost the customer downtime ($$$$). Had the programmer understood the basics, these errors would have never occurred. In addition, many programmers are unable to jump between languages or databases. Well that should not be a problem because a language is just another set of instructions and a database is just another file system.

Having worked as a project/program manager, I understand the lose due to programmers who did not receive the proper training. For example, how many visual basic programmers understand what a VARIANT is? If you do not know exactly what is happening in the background, you can get in big trouble...or what happens in java or basic or PL/SQL when you concatenate a string?

2. There is nothing wrong with GUI interface. In fact, I like it much more than command line (and I have earned my stripes in command line work). I hate to type. I wish I could talk this message instead of type it. The problem with GUI is it is messaging and graphics which take a lot processing power. Command line takes none.

3. Efficiency (other than general best practise programming methods) is determined by each project. For example, I was a program manager for several years. My complany became big on process (ok you guys ... don't get too crazy). So all development and support had to go through this process...THE SAME PROCESS...it did not matter how big or small the work was IT HAD TO GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS and it was a big process. Well ok we should you PROCESSES heavily if we are putting a man on the moon. The stakes (risk) are too high not too but we do not need to use the same processes we use to put the man on the moon to ad a new button on a form. The same goes for application efficiency. It is based on the overall cost and risk.

Finally, I am a chemical engineer by trade and I do feel that the term engineer has changed. It has lost some of it's glamour. Had I known that engineering would lose it's respect, I would have gone into politics. At least there I could vote in my own raise and benefits.....

 

[longhair]

DCCoolBreeze,

Too true.

longhair

 

[dogbert2]

DCCool, I would agree with you, however, I see so many schools turning out students who are ill-prepared to work in the field of programming. The students (while having a great theoretical background) in a lot of cases don't know how to use the very tools they will need to work with when they graduate.

I would like to see a mandatory course in just the basics of using tools on various computer systems (IDE for Windows environment, make for unix/linux environments, usage of editing tools (vi is something every unix/linux admin should know, w/out question), operating systems (windows/unix/linux/etc). This course would cover the basics.

That way, before even taking a single course in a IT program, they will understand the basics of separate compilation, linking in libraries, editing, etc. This type of course (I know people will say you can learn it on your own) would go a LONG way in allowing the student to concentrate on coding when they take their first programming course (and NOT on having to learn or fight the language, compiler, editor, operating system, in a
single course).

 

[greyted]

DCCoolBreeze,
Your first point is spot on.
My first incursion into the IT world was when we purchased a Sinclair Spectrum for our son in the early eighties.
What fun it was learning BASIC, one B.Gates involved in the writing of that so I was informed at that time, is that true?
Having learnt BASIC this then progressed to machine code. What fun and I must admit nightmares were had during this learning process. The fun part was when the executed code performed as required. Most of the nightmare situations occurred when I forgot to back up the assembled machine code onto the tape. If it crashed or the computer froze then it was reset switch and start from the beginning.
One soon learnt to check the hand-assembled code for errors and most importantly save it to tape before execution.
This computer is stored in the loft and functions perfectly to this day.
As BCCoolBreeze states this was/is a very important way to learn how computers function.

Good thread guys.


Ted

 

[aixmurderer]

The problem with the &quot;Engineers&quot; these days are that they don't have or learn the basics, mainly because the &quot;basics&quot; aren't used in many cases anymore.

Example: MCSE - Unless these guys taught themselves some DOS command line commands and batch scripting they are mostly helpless when you take the GUI away. And without the basics of DOS commands it's so much more difficult to learn *nix.


IBM Certified Confused - MQSeries
IBM Certified Flabbergasted - AIX 5 pSeries System Administration

 

[spewn]

///
10 Print &quot;Hello&quot;
20 Goto 10
///

haha, that takes me back...how far? to about 3rd grade. i would make the word 'batman' scroll on the screen, or create password codes to get into cheesy programs of number games. didn't get back into programming until the internet 'hit' the secondary market, but i'm definitely back. there is so much to learn that i know i'll be busy from now to then.

what's crazy is that although i'm fairly young, i'm old school compared to the 15 year old 'script kiddies' out there...

- g

 

[ANFPS26]

I miss the 1940's, the 1950's, the 1960's, especially the 1970's and early 1980's, but from there up I could live without!

Jim

 

[KornGeek]

I had a college professor who complained about the bloat (in terms of program size and memory usage) of programs in recent years. This led to a discussion/debate where he was arguing that the hardware world had to keep making improvements to handle the new software. My assertion is that it is the hardware breakthroughs that allows us to be less meticulous about our programs.

With processors becoming so much faster and memory and hard drive space becoming so widely available, I am able to take shortcuts which allow me to increase my ROI. This leads to less efficient code in the end, but it is carefully chosen inefficiencies. I don't sweat burning up a few extra variables or loop cycles because the time it would save isn't worth the programming effort. I prefer to save my time for the larger logical challenges. Does this make me a weaker programmer than when I was writing highly efficient code? I argue that it makes me a better programmer because I can choose to better spend my time. None of us will even notice delays that are in the milliseconds (unless you're talking about communications issues). If I can save even a half-hour by slowing my code 5 milliseconds, I'm taking it.

I learned programming under DOS, and have reluctantly moved into the Windows realm. Although the DOS code may run more efficiently, I'm finding that the Windows code can be used more efficiently by most users. I was recently working on the conversion of a DOS-based utility to handle interaction with a device over the serial port. Even though the new program took considerably more memory and more hard-drive space (still fits on a floppy), the user doesn't have to type in responses anymore. I think it's worth it.
[/2cents]

DCCoolBreeze, having learned my programming under DOS, I'm still learning VB, and other more &quot;modern&quot; tools. I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how a Variant is stored. Is there someplace where this information can be found easily? It wasn't mentioned in any of the documentation I read. I don't use Variants much, because (due to my DOS background) they just seem unnatural to me.

 

[AIXSPadmin]

A DOS background? Maybe you have been programming the applications to run under DOS on Windows?

DOS hasn't been used hardly anywhere for years, going onto a decade before long.

 

[KornGeek]

My primary learning period was pre-Windows95, so DOS was still my OS of choice. My high-school and college courses were still using text-based DOS programs. Even when the tools upgraded to use Windows, the program requirements were still using text-based console-style displays.

In recent years, I've mostly been programming custom hardware that still has a DOS interface (and some DOS programs under Windows). I've ventured into VB-based programming using Satellite Forms (for programming Palms), MS Access, and recently VB itself.

Many of the programs I maintain are written in proprietary languages also. One of the most complex programs is written in a language that is very near to assembly. When I print it out, we're talking about an entire ream of paper.

That one still gives me nightmares sometimes.

 

[Grenage]

At least you know its more efficient that way

 

[svanels]

In 1990 I wrote a forrest inventory program that produced a relatory necessary for obtaining a license to set up a sawmill.
The whole program (including data and relatory) fit on a 360K floppy and the textfile was about 60 pages long when imported in a wordprocessor. Last year I met one of the guys (environmental consultant) who owns it and still uses it.

The original way: Data collection (field work) 2 months
Data sortening 1 month
Data processing 3 months (pen, paper and calculator)

The program
Data collection (field work) 2 months
Data sortening: 1 week
Data Processing 50 seconds on 80866 with no hard drive

My biggest achievement was reducing the processing time from 3 minutes to 50 seconds. I am still proud of it.

At that time the estimated time to produce the &quot;environmental impact report&quot; was 8 to 10 months, we reduced it to 3 months. Small bussiness - big money. Good old dos.

If I was there nowadays the data collection would have been done with a handheld datacollector.

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[BJCooperIT]

When I started in D/P (as it was known in 1970). I was the only female on staff except for the receptionist and the keypunch operators. Later I had to turn down employment in companies that wanted me only to satisfy their EEO quota.

Computer time was expensive and programmer's time was cheap so we were lucky to get a test run more than one or twice a day. Sometimes it was necessary to work graveyard shift in order to test.

All coding was done with pencil and paper. We lugged around card decks and made up 12-2-9 rep cards to avoid recompiling. Heaven forbid the operator switched hands when loading source decks in the reader - it would sometimes clean compile and then we would get the 11:30pm call that production &quot;blew up&quot;!

My gearshift of my car and my wrist were constantly adorned with rubber bands.

Everyone knew how to wire the boards so machine punched cards could be interpreted.

There was one font on printouts - take it or leave it.

The printer could be made to &quot;sing&quot; as it printed with a bit of patience.

Practical jokes included dynamically altering memory while a program was running and watching the programmer pull out his hair.

We talked of bits & bytes, and half-word/word/double-word boundaries. We never wasted a byte if possible. All programs needed to run in the background partition so the limit was 32k. We coded assembler for business applications.

Program specifications were written on a cocktail napkin at lunch while the analyst and D/P manager drank their vodka gibsons.

Paper clips were ammunition for use with rulers and rubberbands.

Development methodology was usually Ready-Fire-Aim and we always paid the price in maintenance.

Would I go back? No - but the stroll down memory lane has been fun!

select * from Life where Brain is not null

Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
^{When posting code, please use TGML to help readability. Thanks!}

 

[Stevehewitt]

Wow, this forum moves fast!

In response to AIXSPadmin: Windows maybe slower at doing things, but why isn't UNIX as popular as Win2k/NT4 Server? Its because the knowledge you need is a lot more technical. By the time you have learn't the commands in UNIX you could of clicked a few buttons in the Windows GUI!

Steve Hewitt
Systems Manager

 

[AIXSPadmin]

&quot;...why isn't UNIX as popular as Win2k/NT4 Server?&quot;

This is an ignorant statement. In what area are you talking about? Unix certainly owns the data center, and Windblows owns the desktop which is about all it is capable of.