The future may be bright- but I miss the good old days! 18

[guestgulkan]

Take me back to the 1980's when engineers really were engineers.
Computers were new, and you could still go down to
Maplins for a packet of discrete electronic components.
Assembly language was the thing
Ethernet? About 10 people the world knew what that was.
It was like the pioneering days of the old west.

Now, engineers have been reduced to simple 'black box' changers and any half-wit can become an engineer or programmer.

I suppose it's all in the name of progress, but for me the fun and personal job satisfaction has gone.

 

[palbano]

>> Take me back to the 1980's when engineers really were
>> engineers.
>> Computers were new, and you could still go down to
>> Maplins for a packet of discrete electronic components.
>> Assembly language was the thing
>> Ethernet? About 10 people the world knew what that was.
>> It was like the pioneering days of the old west.

yeah and i had to walk to work 2 miles in a foot of snow, up hill... both ways!! LOL -There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't-

-pete

 

[AIXSPadmin]

Hell, where I work (Fortune 500 company), the last guy they hired in my department said he wasn't sure about the job because he didn't know much about networking and tcp/ip and was told that the data comm team did that and he said "great, i'm in."

Lots of people who don't know what they are doing and getting paid for it. And yes EVERYONE is an engineer or technician.

Guess I could complain the same way, those folks who call themselves educators because they are technical trainers and have never had an education to be a teacher. And since I have a master's in education, that should rub me wrong, but, whatever they want to call themselves doesn't matter to me. It is what you can actually do that counts. You can tell everyone you are an astronaut and you really work in a nursery as a gardener; can you do the job as an astronaut? NO, so you just look the fool to everyone, but if it makes you happy calling yourself that it isn't hurting anyone.

 

[Morsing]

Guestgulkan, I couldn't have said it better myself. I started in this business twenty years too late.

Cheers Henrik Morsing
Certified AIX 4.3 Systems Administration
& p690 Technical Support

 

[CajunCenturion]

Take me back to the 1980's
>>when engineers really were engineers
Can't argue with that -- the term engineer has been grossly overworked, and is today quite watered down.

>>Computers were new
Computers were not new in the 1980s. Computers have been around since the late 1940's, so whereas computers were by no means new in the 80's, the PC was in its first decade of existance. And lets not forget that in the early 80's, a 40MB (yes MegaByte) disk drive was huge, and a 33Mhz processor didn't make an appearance until the mid 80's, and that was a screamer.

>>Maplins for a packet of discrete electronic components - Where I live, we still have one or two electronic parts stores where you can get components that, well in some cases, I didn't even know what they are or that they even existed.

>>Assembly language was the thing - the thing for what?

>>Ethernet? About 10 people the world knew what that was True enough in the early 80's for ethernet. But everyone in the industry was keenly aware of what IBM was doing with computer networking and Token Ring.

>>It was like the pioneering days of the old west. As an old veteran of this industry, who as a rookie in 1967, began programming on the IBM 1130, under the tutiledge of a couple of engineers who has over ten years experience each at the time, I would not agree in any way, sense, or form, that the 1980's were the pioneering days. The 80's did see great advances in technology, and for those who entered in the profession at that time probably parallel their growth with that of the industry's new arrival, the PC. But please do not disrespect the thousands of engineerings who in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's did the real pioneering work for this industry, so that the advances made during the 80's could be made.

I would also point out, the 80's, which you state as the good old days, did not have an internet, no google, no yahoo, no on-line reservation systems, none of the things the internet affords us today, such as this very forum in which to have this discussion. No laptops, consider computer speeds and disk capacities. In truth, the PC world was very far behind the mainframe world in many many ways. Of course in the 80's, spam came in a can (and was just as distasteful), and smut was not thrust upon you with every keystroke, and well for that, the 80's weren't quite so bad. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sleipnir214]

And don't forget the first Winchesters that came out....$5000 for a whopping 10MB of storage, and the median time between failures on those drives was about 6 months.

I don't necessarily miss the Olden Golden days, but I do really appreciate the programming discipline the constraints older programming environments forced on you. You had to get very good at writing very elegant code to get those machines to work for you. You learned what was and what was not important to a computer program.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[Craig0201]

"I do really appreciate the programming discipline the constraints older programming environments forced on you. You had to get very good at writing very elegant code to get those machines to work for you. You learned what was and what was not important to a computer program."

And as a positive comment for these days....I can (to a degree) not concern myself with the precise assembler or machine code or even 3GL level and get on with solving business problems. Sure I may not be as elegant but my ROI is a lot greater.

Craig

 

[sleipnir214]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I have no wish to go back to the days of having a 4KB to program space to work in (when "tar" really referred to a tape archive, in my case 9-track tape), or having to jump through all the hoops necessary to wring the maximum performance possible from every line of code, or having your system use charged by the processor-second.

But there have been a large number of times over the past 5 or 6 years where tricks I either discovered or learned back then come in handy now.

I don't miss the old days. But I think learning to program under those constraints made me a more meticulous programmer. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[palbano]

>> I have no wish to go back to the days of having a 4KB to
>> program space to work in

actually that points out a different perspective. if u really miss those days then u should try to find work in some embeded system or driver work etc. there are still projects that are at least very similar to "those good old days" -There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't-

-pete

 

[CajunCenturion]

You pose an interesting question AIXSPadmin -- can you do the job as an astronaut? NO, so you just look the fool to everyone, but if it makes you happy calling yourself that it isn't hurting anyone. and although perhaps not intended, Craig0201 has provided an equally interesting answer -- I can (to a degree) not concern myself with the precise assembler or machine code or even 3GL level and get on with solving business problems. Sure I may not be as elegant but my ROI is a lot greater.

Your code may indeed not be as elegant, although I prefer the term efficient, and in fact, the speed of the hardware today completely covers up the inefficiencies in the code. That is, at least IMHO, what guestgulkan meant, and it certainly what I agreed to in that when engineers were really engineers. So to paraphrase AIXSPadmin's questions, are you doing the job of a software engineer. No. Is it hurting anyone? Perhaps. You're not taking advantage of the resources at your disposal, thus allowing considerable computing power to go to waste. That's not maximizing ROI. Also, if you were to compare your ROI, based on your programming standards of today against the ROI of a software engineer using the very same tools of today, I think you'd find that your ROI would not stack up that well. The engineers simply have more experience and discipline on how to efficiently use the assets at their disposal, knowing in your own words, what is and is not important. Their understanding of what is really happening under the hood, and how to take advantage of it, leads to far more efficient coding. This is just as true today as it always has been with respect to engineering and maximizing ROI.

I also think that the "laissez-faire" attititude de-professionalizes our industry. It sets acceptable standards at a much lower level than it need be or should be. That could arguably be one of the contributing factors to the downturn of the IT profession. It certainly affects the public perception of us as professionals and qualified engineers.

Is it hurting anyone? I think it hurts all of us. Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[guestgulkan]

I think you are right about the 'Laissez-faire' attitude Cajun.
I like to be challenged and stimulated in my job.

There is no challenge in simply telling someone with a problem to upgrade their software and/or computer because it's two years old and 'obsolete' rather than addressing the problem/fault/issues.

It seems to me that the challenge these days (on both the hardware and software side)is how to outdo the competion in in program size, and next to useless gimmiky 'features'.

 

[algernonsidney]

The 1980's may have been good, but some of us weren't eligible to work because of age. A lot of us are more focused on making the now the "good old days." Maybe that's why I know so many people who remember the 1980's who have also been having trouble finding new jobs.

It's hard not to be envious of my 15-year-old nephew. I wish I had this stuff back when I was that age.

Chris

 

[cyclegeek]

My two cents:

I'm so thankful for my first programming teacher, and my first on the job mentor - both bits and bytes types because of who I use the term expensive to describe inefficient code. I feel they set me on the right approach to programming and learning more languages.

The stuff that takes half an hour to whomp up may 'solve' the business problem at hand, but that business problem will change a lot more easily than the half hour program that initially solved it. Maintenance, scalability, reusability - three hallmarks of efficient code and good business practice. If a program can be made to run twice as fast, doesn't it make plain sense to write the faster program, even if it takes longer to write?

Even as a junior in the field, I am amazed at lack of concern fellow developers have in how their code works. I once heard a classmate equate programming to hooking up a stereo - there's only so many wires and combinations of configurations so trying enough times will eventually result in success. It still sends makes me a little bug-eyed to think on. I see others who make no attempt to learn and understand the syntax of the language that provides their livelihood. If anything, the more depth I give to my understanding of one topic, the faster I learn other, related topics.

A quick two cents.

Cheers,
cyclegeek

 

[skiflyer]

"If a program can be made to run twice as fast, doesn't it make plain sense to write the faster program, even if it takes longer to write?"


Depends on the program. If it's a half hour before quitting time and I know I'm going to run it once, definately not, I'll set it to go overnight and clean up in the morning.

Or if I'm writing it knowing that someone else has to maintain it, then maintenance overtakes efficiency.

What if twice as fast means saving 20 seconds, and longer to program means an extra week?

What if twice as fast means takes up twice as much RAM and I'm writing for a Palm Pilot?

There are so many what if's in this scenario that you can't be too simple in your approach. I agree with you for the most part, but there's also a quote I heard which rings true "CPU cycles cost less than a programmers time these days."

No excuse to write ridiculous code, and optimizing your code is always recommended... but I don't agree that it's always the #1 priority... ESPECIALLY when that means switching to a language which will greatly extend development time.

For example: I have tons of python scripts I'd never deploy commercially, and run very rarely, but a super-optimized C program is going to take long enough for me to walk to the kitchen and get a coke... and the python script finishes before I sit back down... is it worth re-writing them?

-Rob

(Note: Playing devils advocate, I definately agree with the tone of your post)

 

[palbano]

>> (Note: Playing devils advocate, I definately agree with
>> the tone of your post)

are u sure? maybe u about gone crazy! LOL man i've read to many posts today.

-pete

 

[gregor weertman]

There is a new generation of engineers now.
The "window clickers".
They know where to find the correct windows to give
the system the right settings.
Even the simplest ms-dos batch program causes panic and the prompt is avoided like the plague.
That’s the drawback of the new stuff we now have.

In the “good old” time, where gui was something you get with an apple and unix could fit on a 10 mb disk, you had to learn to use the prompt.

Gregor

Gregor.Weertman@mailcity.com

 

[johnwm]

You guys should look up the Monty Python 'When I was a boy' sketch - you;re all trawling very old ground here!
________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'People who live in windowed environments shouldn't cast pointers.'

 

[WheeDoggy]

Ahhhh the old days..........

C64 BASIC in high school:
10 Print "Hello"
20 Goto 10


My AT&T 6300 was a "kick-ass" machine w/ 256KB RAM.

Had a 300 baud dialup BBS.

Had a TRaSh-80 Color Computer w/ 64KB RAM and graphics mode w/2 true colors (red and blue).

RAM needed to be soldered onto the mainboard and was EXPENSIVE!

Nice for reminiscing but must appreciate the power and potential of todays hardware and the lower cost!

 

[jad]

2 true colours? that'd make 4 surely? white, red, blue and black ...

i remember my dad borrowed a satellite dish and put it in the garden so that he could talk to a BBS ... huge thing it was ... and the site was so slow

 

[TomKane]

The only thing about the "good old days" from my point of view is I remember keying in BASIC programs into my ZX Spectrum from books I borrowed from the library or spending hours and hours trying to get peripherals to work the way they were supposed to. I think that without all that "suffering" back then I wouldn't appreciate how things are now.