SX-2000: LW29, a few PLIDS left and no extra DNIC(MC330) cards! 1

[pichels]

Hi all,

I have been scouring our system for a few extra PLIDS - only find 3 more that are "out of service".
Then, "config long 2" shows I have slots open in the second cabinet only?
Config Long 3 & 4 are all full: slots 1 -12.
Am I reading this correctly?

Can someone help me figure out if I can install another MC330 - DNI line card?
We have some ONS slots but really need Digital or DNI PLIDS.
If so, I priced them at around $1600 - is that correct?

We also aare "out" of phones adn have new employees starting each week!
We'll need more superset 1's, 401's,420's or 4DN's.
BUT, should we just purchase newer 4015/4025's instead since if we decide to go to a 3300 in the future?
Is there a big difference in price between the 400's and 4000's?

We are looking at a 3300 since we were advised to upgrade to LW34.
Our old mail server is unsupported as well.
Should we upgrade at the price of $15-20,000 for software w/ a new T1 and DNIC or purchase a 3300 at around $28,000 with discounts?

Would we be throwing money away to purchase a software upgrade tp LW34 for the SX-2000 instead of moving to a new hardware platform?

Please advise, if possible, thanks!

SP

 

[pichels]

Hi MIMB!

Thanks again - I will remember all these details when I speak to the vendor again.
Lots to cover for this upgrade.

I want them to perform a hard drive upgrade and ESG was "not" going to do that in their quote for an SX2000 upgrade!


1. TDS wants to upgrade our MCIIIE card.
This was in their quote:

LW 29/30 to LIGHTWARE 34 Software Upgrade
NOTE(S):
May require a Hard Disk Drive Upgrade 192AA.
The Mass Storage Expander Card must be at v A.11 for
Redundant systems. All software options detailed in the
Dims. & Features form attached to this order are re-licensed at no charge. LW33 Certification is required.
LW34 requires the Main Control IIIe Card MC215AD.


2. Also, is this true from TDS?

PRI NA Hardware Package
INCLUDE(S):
MC270AA North American ISDN PRI Card (Qty 1)
MA225AA PRI Interface Assembly (Qty 1)
NOTE(S):
This is a Hardware Package ONLY.
MSDN Software Options must be ordered separately.
PRE-REQUISITE(S):
SX-2000 S/W must be LW29 Rel 3 or Greater.
Digital Links are required with LW30 Release 2 or greater.

3. Should I be aware of any gothchas from TDS here?:


PROGRAM: SX-2000 SOFTWARE MIGRATION
NOTE(S):
- All software options detailed in the Dims & Features form
are re-licensed at no charge.
- Additional software options will be enabled at no charge.
They are: Feature Levels 1, 2 & 3, Advanced ARS,
Message Center, Traffic Reporting, Trunk Group Status,
Advanced Analog Networking, Answer Plus MCD, Answer
Plus Auto Attendant, DSS/BLF, Emergency Services E-911,
CTI Bundle, Traffic Level 15, Max Line Appearances 24.
- Purchased Software Upgrades are required for any system
running software versions previous to LW30 Rls.1 UR1 (R14.2.1).
i.e. LW30 Rls. 1 UR 1 or LW30 Rls. 2
- Does not include any hardware upgrades that may be required.
- Requires technical certification at the latest SX-2000 Software
Release.

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks again!

SP

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

PICHELS:

In ref to your last post above;

1) According to your Config Long report you previously posted, it appears you already have MC215AD processors today and there is nothing to be gained by replacing them. They have no moving parts. Use the command FIRM PLID 1 1 2 and FIRM PLID 1 1 7 to reconfirm what the processors are.

The MK192AA hard disk upgrade (you'll need two of these) in my opinion is a good deal. However, it's a package price only available when performing an upgrade to LW34. If you want new drives, then insist on it from whoever does the upgrade. In fact it could very well be required if your existing hard drives and MSX (Mass Storage Expander) are not at the right levels. The command FIRM PANEL should tell you what the rev level of your MSX card is. This is a potential variable in your upgrade costs so whoever is bidding will need to know what you have in the system now in order to submit a proper bid. Since you already have the newest processors it's quite likely you don't need a new MSX card. Note, the Firm Panel command takes about 20~30 seconds to give a response.

Likely EGS didn't quote the Hard drive replacement because you don't need them (implying that your current drives, MSX, etc. meet minimum size & revision requirements) - did you tell them to include them anyway? Maybe if nothing else buy them and keep them on hand for a rainy day.

2) The PRI stuff - Yup, all necessary if you want PRI. Note the part about buying the MSDN options. You will need those options. However, you should not need to buy any digital links. Your existing MFRD already includes 8, which is enough for 8 T1s (or 8 PRIs). The digital links should be grandfathered-across with the upgrade.

3) Looks pretty standard.

You might ask the vendor to provide you with a copy of the SX2000 General Information Guide. for LW34. This is a soft-copy (PDF) file, about 100 pages that is well worth printing out and doing some reading in, especially for the technically uninformed. It's included in the LW34 software upgrade bundle so be sure to ask for it and the Technician's Handbook (also softcopy PDF file on the distribution disk).

Finally, you can expect to get some push-back on this next request, but if it were mine I'd insist on being given the SYSTEM level Userid and password if either are changed from their standard defaults and then I would periodically verify that they are still valid. Many vendors will change these and are often refuse to share them with the customer as a way of locking you in to them. But the question I would pose to them is, just whose PBX is it? It's mine, not yours and I demand that you provide me with the SYSTEM level userID and password. Without that userID and password, changing vendors can be a major hassle. There are 4 userIDs and 4 passwords, SYSTEM, INSTALLER, MAINT1 and MAINT2. The important one is the SYSTEM. Get it and periodically check to see that it hasn't been changed. Optionally, change it yourself & keep it in a safe place. It is highly unlikely that the vendor will ever need the SYSTEM level password unless they become involved in some really protracted troubleshooting where DEBUG commands are needed. That is the only time it is needed.

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

Finally, for the sake of anyone who took exception to the bid prices being posted in this thread, you might be interested in this web site

http://www.htis.com/cisv_main1.htm

where the entire Mitel price list is posted on the Internet for anyone to see.

 

[pichels]

Hi MIMB,

Alright, and yet more great info!

Ok, already have MC215 procs - so no need to upgrade.

The hard disk upgrade is still in the air - do we really need new drives?
I was told there were issues with the older Fujitsu but the Quantum Fireball drives are good.

Location |Card Id| Rev | Firmware Version
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
System Panel | | |
Hard Disk | | |QUANTUM FIREBALL_TM1280S300X
Ext. Device | | |FUJITSU M2513EL 0030
MSX Board | 606AB| A.22 |Mitel MSX EMSX.B05


And the Mass Storage Expander is at A.22 and so it is above A.11 level.

And I understand the digital link requirements - good, ESG also explained that - just like you said, thanks for the expert advice in verifying that tidbit.

And PRI is a better way to go than T1 - right?
I was told that their are more options: channels are used more dynamically and you get caller ID, more efficient, etc?

Yes, I'l ask about manuals - our current SX2000 Light are lengthy, I have them in a digitized format but haven't gotten much out of them when I need to program PLIDs,etc. Yep, I just look at the SX-2000 technician's handbook here and that is all I ever need! (So far...)


You mentioned:
"There are 4 userIDs and 4 passwords, SYSTEM, INSTALLER, MAINT1 and MAINT2."

Never had a clue about these?
I wouldn't know the passwords...hmmm. I'll look in our knowledgebase and see if anyone documented or wrote in our handbook or ask one of our current Techs that come onsite.

Excellent, thanks for the link on pricing!
I'll use it.

Ok, I think that's it for now...
Again, I appreciate all the knowledge transfer!

SP

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

The prices on that link are all list price with no discounts taken. If you will look around on Google you will find some similar listings including some mention of discounts which will give you some idea of the overall margin. Of course everyone has to make a living and pay the light bill, that's what a profit margin is all about.

Regardless of any premiums, I feel confident that you will have a better customer experience with the higher priced guy. The unfortunate thing is that you didn't upgrade the software sooner. Upgrading from LW29 to LW30 Rls 1-UR1 back in April 2000 would have cost you a fraction of what you're having to pay now and would have been the last software you would have had to buy. Everything since LW30 Rls 1 has been free (except for the labor cost to perform the upgrade). Of course by paying the additional now you will also be getting all the additional features that the free upgrades wouldn't have provided, so you are at least getting more value for your money.

T1 vs PRI ? Yes, definitely. PRI has only 23 channels whereas T1 has 24, but you'll get callerID and a better quality voice channel (users might not notice but modems & faxes will definitely notice) plus they are dynamic. The PRI trunks can be used as DID, ringdown or outbound.

UserIDs and Passwords? You must know something about at least one of them else how are you able to log in and get the screen dumps you've been posting? Obviously the userID you're using has been changed from the default (System, Installer, etc).

All the product documentation is included on the software distribution disk. It would also be a good idea to review all of the release notes for each of the interim releases since LW29 (LW30, 32, 32, 33 and 34) so you can see what all you're gaining. The added features are cumulative, but the release notes sometimes clue you in to any little idiosyncracies of each one.

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

A couple other things I just thought of.

Check with your dealer to find out which color peripheral node cabinet you're going to be getting. Since everything you have today is beige, you would want the new cabinet to match. My reason for mentioning this is that starting back in July of 2004 all the "new" cabinets are now black. However, you might want to ask because I think it is still possible to get beige.

If black is all that's available, now you have a legit reason to go to the secondary (used) market.

Secondly, I had asked previously but don't recall seeing your answer regarding what on earth you're presently using all those analog trunk cards for?? (The LS/GS, E&M, DID Loop cards that today are occupying the first 3 or 4 slots of both peripheral cabinets). If the upgrade to PRI means that some (or all?) of those trunk cards can come out then conceivably you shouldn't need that 3rd peripheral cabinet.

(merely trying to save you a little money here)

 

[pichels]

Hi MIMB,

Sorry I didn't get an email on your last reply?!?

1. Yes, I'll check with the color of black vs. beige.

I'm not sure - the color was not listed unless there is a part number than can tell us...here is the part and price:

1 50004203 PERIPHERAL NODE III 120V (NA) $3,125.00

I thought this was a good price and didn't ask about color, you agree?

2. The analog trunks are used for our analog phones I suppose?

We have "lots" of analog phones in our manuafacturing shop - no need to give them fancy digital phones.

So...makes sense about pulling those cards if we don't need them, thanks.

3. I talked to both vendors and got some finalized quotes on the SX-2000 upgrade and a 3300 migration.
We were given choices of the MX or MXe models.
MXe, which is more upgradeable -> redundancy & resiliency. (Extra power supply, hard drives-RAID and failover to another MX, right?)

This is supposed to be an MX w/ Pkg #2?

1 50004190 3300 MX CONTROLLER $2,275.00
1 50002979 Quad DSP MMC $910.00
And Plus labor...

--> Big difference than below's cost of an MXe...

So, we we're given a price on the 3300MX that we liked and wanted to go forward with and then...

a.) I was told that we CANNOT upgrade to the 3300MX now because of "total" devices = 200 Cards in our system, what?
And that the MXe was our only choice now?
BUT, that is another 7K - we can't fit that in our budget!!!

Mxe w/ Pkg #3?
1 50005363 3300 MXe 1400 USER $3,989.00
1 54002535 A-AMC 3300 SOFTWARE PKG #3 $5,600.00
Plus more cost in labor than the MX..


b.) If we can't afford the MXe and want it - can we get some kind of Mitel customer/partner discount thru our vendor?

c.) Purchase a MXe thru an internet online vendor w/ a cheaper solution and Pkg #3?

d.) Stick w/ the SX-2000 upgrade? We really don't want to go back to the SX-2000 now and spend the money on an upgrade of a unit that will just be replaced in the next 2-5 yrs.

Any ideas?
Thank-you for any input!!!

SP

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

I'm not going to review the costs, but I will review the facts.

1) Not publicized, but for military installations the SX2000 is considered as having a design life expectancy of 20 years. How old is yours?

2) Your SX2000 has a dual-redundant main control with dual redundant power supplies and a dual redundant drive system. If one of these components crashes not a soul on the system will be affected, not a single call will drop.

3) The 3300 has only a single main controller. If it crashes, you're down, period. All calls will drop.

4) You can add Resiliency, but that requires purchasing a 2nd 3300 and even then only your IP phones will have resiliency and then only those for whom you have purchased sufficient resources to give them resiliency.

5) Even with resiliency (two 3300s configured for resiliency) and fully equipped with all new IP telephones ($$$$) if the primary controller (or connectivity to it) is lost, all of your calls to and from the public-switched telephone network will be dropped. This would not happen with the SX2000.

6) The new 3300MXe is not redundant. True it has dual power supplies, but the dual drive option is not configured as a redundant file system. It is simply a RAID-zero mirrored system; better than a single drive system, but still not redundant in the most literal sense.

7) The 3300MX system tops out at 200 users. As you correctly note, you are already beyond that number. You would need the 1400-user 3300 LX system. More importantly, you would need TWO of them if you wanted to have resiliency

8) Resiliency will also require replacing every telephone instrument that you want to make resilient.

9) Someone may suggest purchasing a 3rd 3300 to configure it as a trunking gateway. Good idea, but it's still a single point of failure if the gateway system goes down.

 

[MitelInMyBlood]

Some additional points:

I have avoided the discussion on pricing to avoid getting into a rock-throwing contest with those dealers for whom new equipment sales are vital to their existence. However, if you were to establish a relationship with one of the several aftermarket resellers (Dean Technologies in particular) you could obtain every single piece of hardware that you're needing for this upgrade from the secondary market and get the same warranty period from the reseller that you could from a dealer at a fraction of new cost. This includes the Peripheral Node (which by the way would definitely be a beige cabinet), all of your MC330 DNI cards that you need, all the phones that you need, the PRI card, even the new disk drives.

The software upgrade would naturally have to come from Mitel via one of their authorized dealers and I'm quite certain said dealer would be happy to install everything you bought just for the labor charge and the chance to sell you a maintenance contract (highly recommended) on it all.

Obsolete in 2~5 years? Who told you that? What is your definition of obsolete? Things will no longer work in 2~5 years? Hardly. How do you use your phones today? Is there any feature or functionality you need that they don't already provide?

Since we know that your system already has the very latest-available MC-III(E) controllers that tells us right there that your presenent system is no museum piece. Likely those MC-III(E) controllers were already there in the system when you bought it and not part of an earlier hardware upgrade. The MC-III(E) was introduced very late in the 4th quarter of 1998, so worst case your "system" today is somewhere between 7 and 8 years old. Are you ready to toss it out? I didn't think so.

Not officially announced, but it's true that Mitel has ceased development on the SX2000 platform, but is still working on bug swats, a project which will no doubt continue for the forseable future. There was also mention I read somewhere of LW35 being in the SX2000's future. Therefore the Sx2000 has NOT been manufacture-discontinued yet nor is it at all likely it will be scratched from the product lineup any day now. Before Mitel can M/D the SX2000 they've got to pull a rabbit out of a hat somewhere to come up with something they can replace its redundancy capabilities with for the Life Safety accounts (Hospitals, public safety accounts, etc) right now the 3300, in its most expensive, most elegant configuration, cannot do that.

True the 3300 represents the future and the SX2000 represents the past. However, I thought you were only looking to do an upgrade and not wanting to throw bushelbaskets full of money at this project. Did I misunderstand somewhere along the way?

Also true the 3300 will continue to support your existing peripheral nodes and DSU node and most of your existing phones so you can continue using most of what you have today BUT at the cost of losing your Control Redundancy. To me that's a steep penalty for the sake of an upgrade. Remember what we said above about what happens when the primary 3300 controller goes down. Calls go down. While you're at it, ask too about the hour-plus total system outages (to your legacy peripheral equipment) to do software upgrades on the 3300. The same upgrades that only took a 15-minute hit for the peripherals to reload on the SX2000.

I understand and am sympathetic with the desire not to throw good money after bad, so now I guess the question is how deep are your pockets? How much are you willing to spend to upgrade to an emerging platform versus the potential savings of staying with what still works?

You started this thread by saying you needed some additional room for growth. To accomplish that all you really need is the peripheral node, 6 DNIC cards and 96 phones. Nothing else. Everything else we've talked about, including LW34, was optional.