Software Category Question 2

[IT4EVR]

One thing I've found confusing is what I title I should consider myself.

What is the delineation between software developer, developer, software engineer, applications developer and programmer? I'm sure there are other titles you could throw in there. What is the difference between a software engineer and a programmer?

I do the coding, mostly database front ends, create reports, create databases, queries, stored procedures. What should I call myself?

The wisest people are those who are smart enough to realize they don't know it all.

 

[MasterRacker]

There are no real standards. It might help to look at a number of online salary surveys and look at the titles they trak. Look at the job descriptions for those titles and compare to your own job.

_____
Jeff
[small][purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me[/small]

 

[kHz]

A software engineer is a licensed professional engineer who is schooled and skilled in the application of engineering discipline to the creation of software. A software engineer is often confused with a programmer, but the two are vastly different disciplines. While a programmer creates the codes that make a program run, a software engineer creates the designs the programmer implements. By U.S. law no person may use the title "engineer" (of any type) unless the person holds a professional engineering license from a state licensing board and are in good standing. A software engineer is also held accountable to a specific code of ethics.

Clearly the progression is:
programmer-> developer -> engineer

And unless you have a degree in software engineering or computer engineering or some other engineering degree, you should refrain from calling yourself and engineer. Though my company calls everyone an engineer, we are administrators, which is what I call myself. I have enough respect for the engineering profession I am not going to hijack their honorable title. And I have enough confidence in my skills that I am not offended being an administrator.

 

[MasterRacker]

kHz, What is the soure of your quote? I agree with widespread overuse of the "engineer" term, however I am unaware of a US law codifying engineering licensing related to software.

_____
Jeff
[small][purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me[/small]

 

[kHz]

It was from webopedia(?). I just did a goggle search for the definition of software engineer. I know what the term is myself, but thought another source could define it more succinctly than me.

I agree that I didn't know (and don't think) it is against US law, but maybe it is. In my state it went to the state supreme court, over people calling themselves financial engineers, etc. The court ruled there is nothing to stop them from calling themselves that, however, the court did find that engineer is a term that means a certain education, licensing, experience, etc.

 

[h0h0h0]

Yeah engineer isn't a term i use in the same sentence as software. To me there is no such thing as a software engineer because software is still not a formalized discipline. The state of Texas had a problem with Microsoft calling it's certified techs "Certified Engineers". It's a misnaming.

So to me it's
Coder (aka programmer) --> Developer (aka programmer/analyst or sr. programmer/analyst) --> branch off..

You can do architecture or pure analysis/design. Some people come right ouf of college and start design or architecture.

GR8 - A software developer is a great catchall term.
If you do management then you're a software development manager. Depends on what you do day in day out. When i'm just coding i'm a software developer. When i'm a lead on ap roject i'm a software lead. I could also say programming lead but when i say software it means software.

 

[IT4EVR]

KHZ,

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Yeah, I think that Microsoft really needs to get rid of the engineer terminology they use for the MCSE certifications.

I have never qualified myself as a software engineer, but I would qualify myself as a developer.

The wisest people are those who are smart enough to realize they don't know it all.

 

[chiph]

There are several states (Texas being the most well-known) where the title Engineer can only be used by people who have an engineering degree and are accreditted by a recognized organization.

Anyone working in the software career area is almost always not included in this category (as in: Never).

The progression I've seen is:
- Programmer
- Software Developer
- Senior Software Developer
- Team Lead
- Architect
- Senior Architect

YMMV.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
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[CajunCenturion]

==> To me there is no such thing as a software engineer because software is still not a formalized discipline.

I disagree with that. There are indeed formal methods for software develoment, and are based on the tried and true methods of product engineering and the use of standard engineering practices applied to software development. A number of nationally accredited univerisites offer ABET approved Master's degrees in Software Engineering, and many others offer an ABET approved Master of Science degree in Software Engineering.

That being said, I would agree that very, very few programmers today know what engineer software is, or how to practice it. And even those that do, often, due to political pressures, are not able to utilize software engineering methods.

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[MasterRacker]

Thanks. That could maybe contribute to the Wiki validity thread. As chip mentioned, I've heard of certain states requiring PE or similar licensing, but I don't think there's an actual US law.

In past postions I've had business cards that had "engineer" in the title, however my resume lists those positions as "designer" as I do not have an engineering degree.

_____
Jeff
[small][purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me[/small]

 

[DTSMAN]

I am from Texas originally and I remember the following titles that where never questioned.

Maintenance Engineer - Janitor\Building Maintenance
Operating Engineer - Crane Man(those tall ones)

I bet there are a hand full of others.
I am not going to argue over it, because I know that this being a IT forum, it all spring boards off the issue of Microsoft's namage for their certs, and maybe wondering if the same people that are complaining are going around and pulling the plaquereds of the janitors doors. I guess if I had an Engineering degree I might care, but I doubt it..
I knew as soon as I saw the post what was coming.

Glad noone scared you off Gr8Soutions. As long as you are a MCSE you have a Microsoft engineering certification. I believe most idustry employers know what this means and doesn't mean.

Bo

Kentucky phone support-
"Mash the Kentrol key and hit scape."

 

[Sheco]

I doubt the guy driving the train has an engineering degree!

[...] I would agree that very, very few programmers today know what engineer software is, or how to practice it. And even those that do, often, due to political pressures [red]modern business timeframes and expense constraints[/red], are not able to utilize [red]over-design[/red] software [red]using ivory tower[/red] engineering methods.

... There, I fixed it.

 

[mi294r3]

I see at least to discussions going on here.

1. Software Job Titles and if you can use engineer in them.

2. If software creation is a formalized discipline and can be defined as a engineering pursuit.


My answer to #2 is I don't know, but people are trying

http://www.booch.com/architecture/index.jsp

JRjr

 

[CajunCenturion]

Sheco - spoken like a true programmer. Luckily, today's programmers did not lay the tracks, nor build the train.

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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
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[Sheco]

It not fair to blame the engineer when the salesman, project manager, and finance dudes don't budget the time/resources to do it right the first time.

If you are in a position to do each project the way it SHOULD be done then thats great... but not everyone is so lucky.

If it is just a throw-away solution with limited use... if it is replaced in 18 months anyway then maybe their way is better. .... and if not? These sharks think of patches as an incentive to help sell those profitable maintenance contracts.

Maybe I'm just bitter.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I completely agree with all your points Sheco, but software engineering is not 'over-designing'; in many cases is's simply 'doing a design' before jumping into code writing.

I'm glad that you recognize that there is "a way it SHOULD be done", but many engineering ways are limited to the ivory tower. You can engineer for the short term and you can engineer for the long term.

I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but it's been my experience, that over the life of the project, good solid engineering at the front end saves both time and money, including an understanding of when you are dealing with short term projects.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[DTSMAN]

In doing some research I stumbled on a Texas document created by its Attorney General. (Is he really a General**?) The article appears to be the opinion of the AT. Gen., the summary section of this document confirms Chiph but again its sole intent is to focus on the IT community.

http://www.narte.org/n/204/TXATTNYGENOP.pdf#search='job title engineer'

Bo

Kentucky phone support-
"Mash the Kentrol key and hit scape."

 

[spamly]

As a UNIX consultant at a hospital, I was issued a badge that displayed my name and listed simply "Engineer" as my title. I laughed when I received it because I've never had an engineering course in my life.

Anyway, I was in an elevator on-site and a nurse, after looking intently at my badge, asked me to fix a broken light in her office. A lot of witty retorts shot through my head, but I told her simply, "I'm not that kind of engineer."

And yes, I have since changed my badge to something different (although equally vague).

 

[h0h0h0]

I engineer for cheap maintenance.

 

[trollacious]

In the March 2006 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal, Ed Nisley has an article in his monthly Embedded Space column about the software engineers. For those who have access to this, it starts on page 49.

Lee