Software Category Question 2

[IT4EVR]

One thing I've found confusing is what I title I should consider myself.

What is the delineation between software developer, developer, software engineer, applications developer and programmer? I'm sure there are other titles you could throw in there. What is the difference between a software engineer and a programmer?

I do the coding, mostly database front ends, create reports, create databases, queries, stored procedures. What should I call myself?

The wisest people are those who are smart enough to realize they don't know it all.

 

[IT4EVR]

And don't forget that a housewife is a domestic engineer...

Now that we have made these delineations, should we get Tek Tips to create more job categories for our profiles?

Also since it's evident we should we use the term "engineer" rarely, should we be using the term "architect" for someone in the computer field?

The wisest people are those who are smart enough to realize they don't know it all.

 

[kHz]

Architects are in the same class as engineers as far as I am concerned. Architects need a graduate education and have to be licensed by the state. Until the IT field requires the type of rigor expected of architecture and engineering, the field should police itself and refrain from using those terms.

I know of people who are in the age range of 20-25 without any college and call themselves network engineers, etc. It is obviously to impress people, but is not respectful of people who are true engineers.

A week ago someone asked me if I was a computer engieer. I said no I am an administrator. I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. I wish people would respect others' professions and what they went through to attain the title.

 

[Sheco]

The degree awarded an attorney upon completion of law school is Doctor of Juris Prudence ... what if lawyers started referring to themselves as "Doctor..."

The IT field does not require the "type of rigor" expected of those other disciplines because, in most circumstances, it would be inefficient... a waste of resources.

If your automobile is malfunctioning or in need of routine maintenance, the work will likely be done sooner at higher quality and lower cost if the job is worked by your local gear-head mechanic than if it is done by a degreed automotive design engineer.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> The degree awarded an attorney upon completion of law school is Doctor of Juris Prudence ... what if lawyers started referring to themselves as "Doctor..."
Simply put, engineering degrees are not necessarily doctorates, and many engineers to get doctorates, usually Ph.D.'s and when so conferred, are addressed as "Doctor".

There is nothing inefficient in reserving the title "Engineer" to those who have formally earned that distinction. In fact, I submit that it would be quite the opposite.

If you need a mechanic, then go to a mechanic. If you need an engineer, then get an engineer. If the titles have been reserved to those who have met the appropriate formal qualifications, then you know the difference between the two.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Sheco]

Sorry I guess I totally missed the point...

I misunderstood a suggestion regarding the symantics of job titles... instead taking it as a suggestion to require formal education for tasks for which the education would confer very little actual benefit.

 

[kHz]

A law degree, Doctor of Juris Prudence, is a doctor-level professional degree that is equivalent to an MD (Doctor of Medicine) or DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery), which are distince from a PhD, which are research doctorates.

So in reality a lawyer could call themselves an doctor if they wanted to. When you get your twice-yearly dental exam, you say "I am going to the dentist," but not "I am going to the doctor." Doctor seems to be related to an MD, though a dentist is a doctor. Unless someone is on a college campus, even if they have a PhD, the designation of doctor isn't usually bestowed upon them unless in a professional situation. I worked with someone who had a PhD in Engineering and he had PhD on his business card, but didn't have anyone address him as Dr. Doe. In graduate school I had a professor who didn't like to be called Dr. Smith, but he wanted to be called by his first name.

Anyway, back to the point. An attorney does have a doctorate, and could be called doctor, though nobody ever does. I take that back. In graduate school, there was an attorney who went by Dr. Strangelove, but he was the only one, probably because they made him head of a department.

 

[Sheco]

An engineer is a person that operates an engine. So the guy running the steam engine on a train or ship is an engineer... and the guy running the warp drive on the spaceship is also an engineer.

This operator needs to understand the machine... be able to operate it safely, diagnose and repair routine problems... that sort of thing...

Maybe we need a better word for "engineer" ? ... wrong forum yeah.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==>An engineer is a person that operates an engine.
That is but one definition of 'engineer', and it's not the first definition, nor is it the definition arrived based on the etymology of the word.

Engineer comes from two Latin words - 'ingenium' meaning 'inherent talent' (also root of ingenuity) and gignere meaning to produce. The Latin roots of engineer mean "to produce from inherent talent". I also think you'll find that most dictionaries will list a definition similar to that as the first definition.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Sheco]

I always thought of a JD as more of a Master's degree ... since it is just 3 years after bachelor's.

 

[Sheco]

I looked it up ...

The word "engine" refers to a device or machine "produced from skill or clerverness" ...

An engineer is someone who operates this device.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Here are some additional sources that consistently have as the primary definition, someone over and beyond that of an operator, often including the design of such devices.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=engineer&r=66

http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/engineer

http://www.bartleby.com/61/53/E0145300.html

http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=engineer&matchtype=exact

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=25686&dict=CALD

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/engineer?view=uk

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861608484

http://www.onelook.com/?w=engineer&ls=a

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[damber]

Isn't language a funny thing..?

A living breathing organism changing, adapting and generating arguments and disputes over the *real* meaning of words.

Fact: The meaning of words evolve over time.

Why ? Because, as the incumbent custodians of the language, current day society is responsible for the use of those words, and their inference on real life situations.

Do any of you refer to happy people as gay anymore ? Didn't think so.

What about the word wicked ? She is mean and wicked. We had a wicked time! OK that may be a local British thing, but you get the idea...

How about experienced ? I am experienced in evolutionary computational algorithms. Or am I? If I've ever looked at one and 'experienced' it doing its thing, I am theoretically 'experienced' - but doesn't mean I'm 'experienced' in the more implicit sense of the word, does it?

Quite simply, there are many things to consider when understanding the meaning of a word beyond its 'dictionary definition'. The most important of which is the context.

Sheco's made a very valid point, demonstrating the nonsensical nature of the meaning of 'engineer'. Probably to show that we as the current custodians of our language can decide on what is and isn't acceptable use of said words. Doesn't mean we can all use something different - this just creates confusion.. however just looking at the differences between some British English and American English words and you'll see that the same word can mean different things to different people - more prominent through cultural interpretation, though even local differences can be noticed. (e.g. Jelly sandwiches in Britain would be considered weird, but Jam sandwiches are just dandy..)

Fact: Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics... You can prove anything if you search long enough on the internet... ;-)

(That's not a go at you Cajun, just a general point in case this gets flamed with 'evidence' either for or against)

Anyway.. back on the main point.

An engineer or architect in IT/IS/ICT/Computing/etc/etc ;-) is whatever the IT world expects an Engineer or Architect to be. I agree though, that we should use this sparingly. If a person is certified with known industry standards for software development, management and architecture, such as TOGAF, Zachman, ISO20000/BS15000, DSDM/RUP/SSADM, SOA, BCS, blah blah blah, and/or is an experianced practitioner, then it seems only appropriate to call them by their earned title.

Unfortunately some people seem to use terms like 'engineer', 'architect' etc in replacement of 'generic IT person' - Amazing how many support engineers, technical archtects, software engineers, network engineers the world seems to have, yet only a few of them actually understand standard architectural/engineering patterns, best practices, governance models and notations, even fewer are accredited (though I'm not a fan of education over experience - experience is much more real life, the education is a good foundation to make experience more effective, but education alone is worth as much as... well, maybe I'm being a little harsh ;-) )

A small analogy to close:

I do martial arts (Shotokan Karate at the moment), and find that many of the lower grades ask me how long before they can become a black belt, as well as arguing with each other about who stands on whose side in the line up (a formal pecking order based on seniority of grade and experience). My response is always the same... the belt you wear round your waist has little to do with how good your karate is, and even less to do with how good a fighter you are. There are 10 year olds with black belts, and 30 year olds with white belts - I know who'd win in a fight. A more realistic match is the 30yr old black belt with 5 years experience, vs a 30yr old white belt with 20yrs experience of 3 other martial arts... I have a pretty good idea who would win.

Moral: Just because you're called a Software Engineer doesn't mean you make good software. Focus on what is important... making good software.

Another funny thing about karate belts, is that all white belts can't wait until the belt around their waist becomes black. All black belts can't wait until their belts turn white with age..

Moral: Once you fulfil the proposed ability of your said title, it matters less and less that you're called it, instead you would rather focus on doing the job.

Maybe this will make sense to someone, I hope it does...

A smile is worth a thousand kind words. So smile, it's easy!

 

[CajunCenturion]

damber - All you've shown is that anyone can say anything they want to mean anything they want, and can justify it by claiming it's language evolution, culturally appropriate, or by placing it in a contrived context. When one allows such liberal interpretation then the value of language disintegrates.

I agree with the second half of your post, especially with the paragraph that starts, "Unfortunately some people seem to use terms like 'engineer', 'architect' etc in replacement of 'generic IT person' - ...". Unfortunately, the first half of your posts explains the rationalization of why this is so. Despite the thinking that "... Doesn't mean we can all use something different - this just creates confusion." the referenced paragraph is a perfect example of how people are calling it something different, and how it has caused confusion.

Moral: Just because you're called a Software Engineer doesn't mean you make good software. Focus on what is important... making good software.

Equally valid, but apparently "defined" out of existence is the following:
Just because you make good software doesn't mean you're a software enginner.

Software Engineer <> Programmer

unless of course, it suits you to define it that way.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[damber]

damber - All you've shown is that anyone can say anything they want to mean anything they want, and can justify it by claiming it's language evolution, culturally appropriate, or by placing it in a contrived context. When one allows such liberal interpretation then the value of language disintegrates.

So, you use all the same words as people 300 years ago ? I doubt it. In fact your diction is unlikely to match someone of even 50 years ago.. hey, even 30 years ago.

Besides that is not what I've shown, I've shown that consensus in society can, over time, change the meaning of words to fit their needs/expectations/etc. I could of course go and find an abundance of internet material on the evolution of languages, but that would be of little use considering my second fact..! (besides I'm feeling a little lazy today ;-))

If language is not evolutionary, then why don't we all speak latin in the latin based language countries? Why do words from previous times mean different things now ? Why are several words added to the dictionary each year ? If you're American.. why are there differences between the American English dictionary and the English English[sup]TM[/sup] Dictionary ?

I find arguing about these kind of semantics about as useful as watching paint dry.

It's like an analyst taking a 'requirement' from a customer at face value without understanding the 'need-behind-the-need' - look for the meaning, and you'll do better at really understanding what is needed. Look at the presentation and you'll likely miss the point. Not everyone is a walking dictionary, and most tend to learn the meaning of words from everyday contextual use by their society, therefore you need to understand their intent more than the technical meaning of the word. Humans do this extremely well, without knowing it most of the time, that's why getting computers to understand inference and context is surprisingly difficult.

Essentially the first point is saying that it doesn't really matter what the word is, as long as we generally/mostly agree its meaning, which could be localised or generalised.

The second point re-iterates the second part by noting the lack of consistency in the terminology and the need to clarify the general intent of the word - and to stop its (purposeful) improper use.

The analogies were included to demonstrate that really.. when it comes down to it.. it doesn't matter all that much, as long as you do a good job. You can be called a sanitation engineer, but if you clean toilets, you clean toilets - there's no getting away from it.

BTW, I never implied a Software Engineer == Programmer. "making" good software is not just down to a programmer.

A useful example is my sub-tag (Programmer) - I'm as much a "programmer" (by title) as I am a CIO. I was a good few years ago, but not now. Still, what does it matter? Does that change the content of my posts ? Not Really. (Not saying I don't code - I do, but not for work)

So, I'm not saying that diversification of language is a good thing - I can be a little pedantic about words myself from time to time, but we need to understand that context is hugely important to the understanding of meaning, and that an Architect in IT is not necessarily the same as an Architect in the contruction world - highly similar but not necessarily the same.

A smile is worth a thousand kind words. So smile, it's easy!

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I've shown that consensus in society can, over time, change the meaning of words to fit their needs/expectations/etc.
Of course language is evolutionary, and in any event, that's not the issue. The issue under discussion is the definition of engineer. No matter how eloquently you wax about language evolution, that in an of itself, does not justify changing the definiton of a word to suit one's personal agenda.

Absolutely, I agree that a consensus can lead to a change in defintion, but moreso, a conesnsus is required for a change in defintion. The existence of this discussion shows that no consensus exists on the watering down of engineer, depsite anyone's personal wishes, or the nature of evolutionary language.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[damber]

does not justify changing the definiton of a word to suit one's personal agenda.

Well, that wasn't my point. I certainly have no personal agenda for this - makes no difference to me, I aim to hire and select people based on ability and talent, rather than titles.

It is a matter of consensus - and more than just the people in these fora, but interesting none-the-less - as there are differences in real life, and not just for engineer, but for a wide variety of terms - even administrator, analyst, developer, consultant etc (and especially manager).

Anyway, it sounds like we are agreeing on most of the subject, but I wanted to make it clear that we should be careful about assuming the absolute meaning of words from a) their dictionary definition, b) their use in other environments/cultures and c) their 'traditional' meaning

Maybe it's because I come from a very large company that has a lot of people with titles that don't describe their job (me included) and find lots of job postings with titles that are as relevant to the job spec as they are to the pay grade...

Or maybe I'm just bored today... ;-)

A smile is worth a thousand kind words. So smile, it's easy!