Society and Computers 6

[mutant]

I guess the issue I am trying to raise here is in parallel with the title of this forum. The variation is:

"How should the computer profession define it's standards for being a computer professional?"

In various engineering professions, you must pass a governing body's administered exam to become say a certified civil engineer. Or, you must pass the bar exam to practice law. And, the same for becoming a doctor. Getting a degree in a field doesn't guarantee that you are going to be able to practice the profession.

Will there ever be a point when there is a major meltdown of technology that society will require the computer profession to maintain equivalent standards for certification as civil engineers, lawyers or doctors? I'm not talking about hokey MS Certifications; I'm talking serious certification by a real governing body.

Computer technology is driving the industrial world and a major meltdown could cause extreme problems. As a side note, everyone knows it takes a certified person to get something as simple as an antibiotic Rx (yes, I do want to self-medicate myself). You don't have to have a PhD to write a Rx. There are many certified nurses that can do that. But, the basic point is, the person writing the Rx and also filling the Rx are certified. So, to jump back to the main point, is society placing too much faith in computers systems that are being developed by the self-taught computer experts that probably learned from other self-taught computer experts?

Where is this lack of certification going to lead the computer profession? Is there really a definition for "computer professional?" As a parallel, I might be able to self-medicate myself with a little research, but I would never want to take the responsibility for delivering a baby. It really appears that society has opted for the computer professional to be a lesser profession with lower expectactions of them.

I probably will not reply to this. I just wanted to stir up something.

 

[dilettante]

I would suggest that maybe "some of this IT stuff" not only is that hard, but probably is harder than widely believed.

I find it shocking how broad the problems were last August in many corporate settings when Blaster ran rampant. This was especially shocking in light of the easy fix that was readily available weeks beforehand. I am currently finding server after server still unpatched for the most recent Unix Sendmail vulnerability.

Log analysis and simple log cleanup is widely ignored, applications are typically installed insecurely, little is being done to roll off old files on many systems, user accounts are an access rights nightmare. How did all of these "network administrators" get their jobs?

Things are little better in the software development arena. Technologies and techniques more apropriate to small 1980s LAN applications are still shamelessly being rolled out in new applications, despite the number of scalability, security, and maintenance problems these stone-age PC programs leave in their wakes.

I wonder how much of this has fueled the argument we keep hearing that western IT people lack skills and need to retrain (as an excuse for shipping jobs offshore or bringing tempory visa workers in)?

Most existing certification programs do not seem to be doing much good. Partially for the reasons cited above, but possibly also for the reason that those without even basic certs or formal education have successfully biased organizations against requiring them. No, the papers don't "make the man," but the current situation seems to let anybody in the door, able or not. This can only dilute the perceived quality of IT professions generally.

I don't think the answer is "making certs tougher." If certification is to mean anything it needs to be improved as a measure of real knowledge and ability in some manner though. As already pointed out, numerous roles exist with varying requirements for skills and knowledge.

It leaves small shops with a serious problem: the need for jacks of all trades. But the other shoe dropping here is of course "masters of none." I think this is largely a truism, though for smaller shops it may not necessarily be such a handicap. Often small shop needs are not as sophisticated in many ways because they are in a good position to outsource things like web hosting, email hosting, some application hosting, and inter-location networks.

I think what may really be needed are periodic audits of IT staff skills, policies, procedures, and the actual practices being carried out. Of course this could be at least as contentious as the whole "usefulness of certs" dialog. Truly relevant audits would be difficult to devise and carry out, and would have a significant price tag. Of course regulations like HIPAA (

http://www.hipaadvisory.com/)

in the U.S. may be just the tip of the iceberg we are heading for, and may force industry toward such audits of staff and practices.

"Johnny Screwdriver's" days may be numbered.

 

[CajunCenturion]

--> One person I know who did the IT hiring at a company would always ask the hardware people he interviewed how many computers they owned. He told me that if they only had one PC that he knew they did not have a passion for their craft.

That has got to be one of the most arbitrary and capricious judgments I've ever heard. Not only does is show a certain amout of closed-mindedness on the part of the hirer, it pays homage to stereotypical geek, while denigrating those who are quite passionate about their profession, yet choose to have a life outside the office, spending their own time on their other passions, like hobbies and family.

From my own personal perspective, I'd rather have the more well-rounded person.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[chiph]

One person I know who did the IT hiring at a company would always ask the hardware people he interviewed how many computers they owned. He told me that if they only had one PC that he knew they did not have a passion for their craft.

What about me? I'm a software guy, and I've got four working PCs, one that doesn't work, and pieces/parts for one or two more.

But it's a good question (Sorry, Cajun!). I suppose you could ask someone for a software position if they have a MSDN subscription.

I guess my beef with certs is that they're often used by HR departments to filter out people who would otherwise be excellent for the job. People like myself, who are passionate about writing good software, but think that certs are for people with good short-term memory, would never get an interview without "networking" behind HR's back.

Chip H.


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[Pyg]

"That has got to be one of the most arbitrary and capricious judgments I've ever heard. Not only does is show a certain amout of closed-mindedness on the part of the hirer, it pays homage to stereotypical geek, while denigrating those who are quite passionate about their profession, yet choose to have a life outside the office, spending their own time on their other passions, like hobbies and family."

Have you ever been to a job interview where fast judgements were NOT made? Most Jobs are won and lost in the first few minutes an interview. Given some of the inane questions I have been asked by HR people I'd have to say that "How many computers do you own?" is one of the better ones.

Oh yeah... Just because I have 4' data rack in the closet of my house it does not mean that I'm not 'well rounded'.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I would disagree that most jobs are won and lost in the first few minutes of an interview. I will certainly agree that many jobs can be lost in the first few minutes, but not won. In fact, many jobs require multiple interviews, and whereas you can lose it at almost any time, to win it requires that you stay the course throughout the entire process. And even then, it's not a guarantee that you'll get the job.

Would you judge a pilot's passion about his/her craft based on whether or not they owned a plane? Does a professional driver have to own their own truck to be passionate about that profession? Do you judge an attorney's passion by the size of the law library at home? Is a doctor's passion determined by how much medicine is practiced while off-duty? Do you judge the passion of a carpenter towards their job or a professional mechanic based on the number of tools they have at home?

In many cases, I think IT (and other professionals as well) is both a hobby and a profession to many, and like many people, invest their resources into their hobbies. I wonder chiph, do you have these machine's at home because they are one of your hobbies and you are passionate about your hobby (as many of us are), or are they part of your possessions because you are that passionate about your profession that you bring work home, and need the equipment to be successful at your job.

The question is far better suited to determine if a person is passionate about their hobby. When hobbies and professions are one in the same, then the question falls right into place. I think most of us are quite passionate about our hobbies, and for the most part, probably passionate about our careers as well. But when the hobbies and career are not the same, it is dangerous to assume that because one does not view their profession as their hobby, that they are not passionate about their profession.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dilettante]

Hmm...

I suppose I thought people ran multiple machines at home to provide a test-bed to get hands on experience as part of their continuing education.

I've seen such deep cutbacks in training budgets on the job that this is nearly the only answer I have for going "outside the book."

 

[Pyg]

"Would you judge a pilot's passion about his/her craft based on whether or not they owned a plane? Does a professional driver have to own their own truck to be passionate about that profession? Do you judge an attorney's passion by the size of the law library at home? Is a doctor's passion determined by how much medicine is practiced while off-duty? Do you judge the passion of a carpenter towards their job or a professional mechanic based on the number of tools they have at home?"

*sigh*

The question or even the TYPE of question is NOT a blanket statement to hire anyone for any profession.

Perhaps you would ask a pilot to name his favorite plane, a lawyer to name a few law books he had read, or a doctor what inspired him to get into medicine.

I can't believe that will all the stupid HR questions that are asked in an interview that THIS one question is the one that's absurb.

 

[sleipnir214]

dilletant:
You have a logical flaw in your reasoning. It is incorrect to assume that if some people run multiple machines at home to get experience, then all people do so.



Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[dilettante]

Well, I never meant to defend the practice of selecting candidates based on personal computer ownership. I was just saying that I thought multi-computer home networks don't have to be strictly for hobby use.

As far as all of this goes, I was recently put through some training in a new style of interviewing we are to use in the future. It requires that interview panels have a mix of folks from all over the organization, so for example in IT hiring you might have one IT person on the 3-person panel. The emphasis is also on almost any other dimension of the candidate besides relevant skills, and in fact the process only leaves room for about 2 to 3 job-skill questions at all.

I guess the assumption is that if their application got past HR in some manner you can't question their technical skills or experience too deeply.

The whole raft of soft skills you must quiz them on have even been labeled "competencies." So now by (HR's) definition, even if they get through the process, get hired, and can't tie their shoes you can't fire them for incompetance as long as they play well with others.

 

[CajunCenturion]

It's not the question Pyg that is absurd.

It's the "if they only had one PC that he knew they did not have a passion for their craft" that is absurd.


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Pyg]

I think it's a pretty good measurement myself.

Hire a carpenter who doesn't own a saw, hire a lawyer who only reads the comics, go to a doctor who never reads AMA reports? Hire a netadmin who only owns a Commodore 64...

While it's not the ONLY measurement for passion that should be used it does give one an inside look.

 

[sleipnir214]

Pyg:
I going to have to disagree with you, too. I know lawyers and lawyers who on their personal time only read golf and fishing magazines, and it doesn't make them any worse practitioners of their professions. The lawyer is a personal friend who is one of the most sought-after real estate attorneys in my state.

And I know of one very good computer tech that owns only one computer -- An Altair 8800 he's trying to get running again.

And the example of the carpenter and the saw is specious. A saw is, as a general rule, much more portable than a computer. Carpenters tend to carry them everywhere.

Basing employment on 24-hour dedication to a field sounds to me like a good way to hire obsessive-compulsives. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to hire people whou have lives.

I agree that those doing the hiring have to make quick and arbitrary decisions about a person's suitability. But if you're going to pick a metric that's both arbitrary and meaningless, why not make it easy on yourself and do it by eye color?

Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[CajunCenturion]

That is certainly one way to look at it. Personally, I don't care if a carpenter owns a saw. I care if the company that I contract with provides the necessary tools to their staff to get the job done. I don't care what a doctor or lawyer reads on their own time, I care what they read and do when they are practicing their profession.

You say that it does give one an inside look. On what grounds do you believe that the personal property, or lack thereof, is an accurate, or even partial, reflection of their professional passion, or their ability to get the job done.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Pyg]

Well ok... I am exaggerating making statements about carpenters not owning saws and tools.

Does anyone have a better way to find out if someone is passionate about their work? How would you go about finding out the TRUE (and not practiced in front of a mirror) answer to that in the FIRST interview?

Funny but most of my NON-tech friends (my dad for one) own more than one PC.

I believe IN THIS CASE that a tech's personal property does give inside information on the basis that if a tech is always aquiring equipment, software, etc. that he/she is continuing to improve his/her skills and knowledge in their field.

I never said anything about ability, just passion. Peeps who memorize Exam Cram books have the 'ability' to pass the Network+ cert and the 'ability'to setup a network.

"I agree that those doing the hiring have to make quick and arbitrary decisions about a person's suitability. But if you're going to pick a metric that's both arbitrary and meaningless, why not make it easy on yourself and do it by eye color?"

Once again, *sigh*

Nobody ever said that this was the ONLY basis for hiring someone. It was ONE question out of many that I thought was interesting.

...And you are exagerating about the "24 hour dedication". Just because *I* own four PCs it does not mean that I spend 24 hours a day at them.

 

[sleipnir214]

Pyg:
All a tech's personal computing property tells you about the tech is how much disposable income he has.

I have a passion for IT, but by the metric you support, I can never prove it. I spend my income on feeding and clothing my yard-apes rather than on computer hardware.


Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[Pyg]

Ok, here is where I explain one more time that this ONE question is not the only determing factor this guy uses in the interview process.

I have stated that it is *A* measurement not *THE* measurement.

 

[sleipnir214]

And here is where I explain that it has no place in the determination process whatsoever because it is a useless metric.

It doesn't matter whether it is the first filter used to winnow the original candidate pool or whether it's the last tie-breaker used after polygraphs, hands-on demonstration of skills, deep-hypnosis questioning, in-depth technical questionaires, body-cavity searches, and vetting of curriculum vita credentials. A meaningless metric is no more useful than any other random coin-flip because any part of a filter system can be the part that stops something getting through. If you are choosing a useless thing by which to filter, then you get useless output from the filter.

You might as well sit the last two candidates down in a room and ask, "You know, I still can't decide. Lemme think...Is either of you...um...a Presbyterian? You are? Good, you have the job."


Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[CajunCenturion]

I do fully understand and agree that trying to obtain some measure of passion is useful in evaluating canidates.

Passion is an emotional characteristic. Passion is something you can hear in the voice or see in the sparkle of the eyes. You cannot gauge the quantity nor the quality of an emotional state based on material possessions.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Pyg]

ok guys... I'm done with this thread. There is to much being read into asking a simple question during a job interview.

Even the spirit of the question has been perverted at this point.

You keep insisting that this is the ONLY metric being used in a job interview and I keep telling you that it's not. If it'll make you feel better, I can give you the guy's email address and you can 'rage' at him a while.


"Does anyone have a better way to find out if someone is passionate about their work? How would you go about finding out the TRUE (and not practiced in front of a mirror) answer to that in the FIRST interview?"

I guess nobody had any suggestions.