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recruiters and references 2

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VE

Technical User
Oct 25, 2000
220
US

I'm leaving a job I have had for 5 1/2 years. I posted my resume on a couple of job sites and now I have recruiters calling me.

They all seem to want to call my references before sending me to interview with their clients. I've discussed this with my references and have a mixed reaction of "that's what they do, it's OK" and "no way they don't know what they are doing stay away from them".

I don't want anyone calling my references until I'm sure I want a particular position and it looks like I'm in the top two candidates or so with the hiring manager.

I don't want the recruiter to think that there is a problem with my references, but I just think it's the wrong time to call them, particularly when I've only spoken with the recruiters, many of whom do not seem to understand the skills that they are looking for in the first place.

Am I being over sensitive to this or is this how they really work now? What do you all think of this practice?

Thank you
V
 
I actually just worked through a recruiter recently...

She did not call my references at all. Only the places interested in me did. I understand the recruiter job is to find qualified candidates for each position, but I believe that should be done by the resume and not act as another "filter" for the employer.

I guess the worse thing that happens is your references receive one extra phone call.
 
I can see where a good recruiter would want to verify experiences and such prior to submitting you to a company especially a large company with strict hiring policies. Typically recruiters don't get pain unless they place someone and then other variables can determine what they make for the placement. A good recruiter might want to make sure they are only placing candidates that have a high possibility of being placed.

how many times have you heard someone complaining that they have 10 years Java Development experience and was sent to a JR developer interview? How many times have you interviewed someone only to have them not know anything they should for the job they were interviwing for?

I Have a friend who is one of the top recruiters where I used to live and she is at this level because she only sends the best people for the job to an interview. She knows virtually everyone whose in IT in that city and if she doesn't she probably knows people who know the ones she doesn't.

The process to get hired especially in large companies can be time consuming and costly. Companiespay millions of dollars a year for employment and education verification as-well-as drug testing and criminal records checks. Why send someone to an interview that the person doesn't have a feeling they will actually get hired.

Paul
---------------------------------------
Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck
 

Thank you both.

It does sound reasonable when put that way. These are all big companies too. I guess the smaller companies do not use recruiters so much, that may be the difference I'm seeing from when I was looking 5 years ago. 2003 was a very different job market too.

V
 
I worked through a recruitment/placement/temp agency where I was actually on their payroll and contracted out on assignments. Beceause I was definitely an employee of the company, it made sense that they would want to verify my references before vouching for me.
 
I understand the recruiter job is to find qualified candidates for each position, but I believe that should be done by the resume and not act as another "filter" for the employer.

Except that most employers that use recruiting firms use to them act as another filter to weed out the bad candidates. Go figure.

The hiring manager at the employer needs someone to fill a vacant position. If they do their own recruiting they have to wade through 50 crap resumes just to find 10 candidates with the skills that they want listed on their resumes. Then they interview those 10 candidates and find out that only 3 or 4 of them actually have the skills that are listed on the resume. Then they have to figure out of those 3 or 4 candidates whether they would consider hiring them, and hope that the candidate that they want is still available and wants to come to work for them for the pay that is being offered. If not, then the process starts over again from the beginning, and all the while the hiring manager isn't getting his work done.

Alternatively they can pay a recruiter/placement firm to find qualified candidates for them so that they can start with those 3-4 qualified candidates instead of the 50 resumes. That saves the company a lot of time, and therefore can be a valuable service.

As far as calling the references goes, if you are a recruiter then it is your job to sort the wheat from the chaff and submit the best candidate for the position. If you get a request from a customer you probably will only submit one candidate for that position. In order to maximize your chance of placing someone, you will want to make sure that the candidate that you submit is the most qualified. If that means calling references, they call references.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
 
And of course they call references to get more people into their databases as possible people to recruit. Anytime a recruiting firm has called me as a reference they ask if I'm looking for work.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 
SQLSister,

Now I understand why reference might not want them to call. IMHO, that's inappropriate.
 
Just to play devils advocate (as I believe this happened in a company I left a few years ago)

I had my CV on the job boards with the company I worked for (small company easy to contact).

The recruiters rang me and asked who I worked for. Then oddly enough later that afternoon they were ringing that company asking if they needed any staff as they had candidates (which were direct replacements from me). I had told them not to contact that company directly.

From that I would say that there are a handful of recruiters that want to know your references so they can sell someone into the position you are leaving (2 possible commissions).
 
On the UK/Irish market, MOST recruiters will ask for references ONLY to get to call them to see if they can get more business out of them. Not because the client needs them.


As a rule of thumb, whenever a recruiter asks for reference when you are applying to a job, I, and many others here, state that references will be presented to the customer on the first meeting.
And never to the agency/recruiter, as they do not need to be given more contacts.

Regards

Frederico Fonseca
SysSoft Integrated Ltd

FAQ219-2884
FAQ181-2886
 
I agree with fredericofonseca, stay away from recruiters that require a list of references up front. They are only trying to drum up business. I have contracted before for 3 years with reputable recruiters and they never once asked for my references until I was top choice by the hiring company.

Cliff, MCSE/MCSA/MCTS/CCNA/VCP/CCA
 
Wow, here goes the "we hate recruiters" song again. It's the same one it always has been.

Bad recruiters like some described above make it incredibly hard for the good ones to find quality candidates for sometimes quite high paying jobs. Recruiters often work directly for a client, but there are a lot of recruiters who work for other recruiters who work for other recruiters who are begging for contract work from off-name staffing firms.

There are a lot of companies now who do not even do their own hiring, but choose to go through recruiting and staffing firms.

Instead of making assumptions, find out from the recruiter if they are subcontracted directly to the end client, or through another staffing/recruiting firm. If they are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc level recruiting, move on to another firm. If they are contracted directly to the client for staffing needs, you bet your bippy they're going to check your references.

With all the people falsifying their resumes, it makes sense that the recruiter is going to check you out before sending you to the client. Many client companies even require full background checks and drug tests before candidates are submitted depending on the industry. This varies however, and many recruiters cannot even say who the client is until the client approves the candidate for an interview.

Instead of making blanket statements, I'd recommend you learn more about not just the recruiter, but their company. There are many, many good firms out there, and rejecting all recruiters because there are a few questionable ones out there can quickly keep you from being seen by many corporations.

There are enough good candidates out there to keep many firms from "padding" their databases with people who aren't even looking for jobs. I don't know why they do that. I guess to some, size matters. For other firms, quality candidates matter because THAT is who gets hired.

 
I think that the "padding" of their prospect databases happens because every once in awhile they will get a request for a very specific or hard to find skillset and they want to have someone in their database who fits the bill, even if they are a working elsewhere, in the thinking that they MAY be looking for work later or might be inticed into something else. For the less reputable firms, they'll contact everyone who posts a resume on Monster, Dice, HotJobs, etc just to get them into their database even if they don't have work for them.



________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
 

Thanks everyone for all the thoughtful replies. I think the best answer I'm getting for my own situation is "it depends".


V
 
Yes, VE.... it does depend. My last 3 jobs were found through recruiters. I do not depend on them solely, but they (the more reputable ones at least) have good connections to companies that do not advertise openings. My wife is in HR. She said in our field, since HR rarely has any idea as to what it is we (IT) do, staffing firms are used a lot more as a pre-screening function. In regards to references, the only time mine have ever been called is when an offer was about to be made for employment. That was to do the last bit of background check before making the official offer. I have used some that call my refs right off the bat, but they did not pan out well for me. I am very careful as to whom I list on my ref list and make sure they understand there might be a barrage of calls since i tend to apply at many different places at once. You really need to talk to your refs and let them know that you are looking for a new position and that there may be several calls coming.

Since you are worried about your refs being called too early, I wouldn't list them as primary references. Pick co-workers and former co-workers you trust and know how to keep their mouths shut to current employers. I was fortunate enough that some of my best friends were also co-works at one time. I know they'll give a great ref and they know I'll return the favor. Talk to the recruiter and let them know you want keep it as quiet as possible. This is something they are familiar with and can easily accommodate. As a possible incentive, let them know you have a couple friends you might refer to them if all goes well with your placement. That should help head off any over anxious head hunters.

It really boils down to, talk to them and your refs. Let them know your situation. If the recruiter fails to follow your request, fire them and move on to another. That's the beauty of business from the stance of the customer/consumer.

"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.
 
I think the best answer I'm getting for my own situation is "it depends".

In my experience, that's usually the most accurate answer for almost any situation. :)

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
 
Boss: "Kmcferrin when will the new servers be up and running"
Kmcferrin: "It Depends"


[rofl]


Paul
---------------------------------------
Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck
 
Boss: "Kmcferrin when will the new servers be up and running"
Kmcferrin: "It Depends"


...on how long it takes the networking team to run the patches for Ethernet and SAN, how long it takes the storage team to present disk space and how many interruptions I get after that point that will prevent me from dedicating my time to building the servers.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
 
pardon me folks, but all previous posts appear to be total 'nonse'

Your default position must always be that your prospective empoyers may NOT contact your current employers for references (or any other reason), unless and until a written offer of employment (by an appropriately authorised officer of the company) is dependent thereon.

I have heard of someone who was looking for a new job. An agency asked if they could contact their current employer, and they foolishly agreed. That person's boss got wind of the fact that they were looking to move on, and served notice.

The person was duly terminated, and the new job turned out to be a non-existent job.

The only time your prospective employer may contact your current employer is when they have made it pellucidly clear (in writing) that a good reference will result in an offer of employment.

Anything else is playing Russian roulette with your source of income.

Regards

T
 
I don't believe anyone here was talking abou current employer, but more along the lines of professional references and past employers.

Paul
---------------------------------------
Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck
 
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