Puzzled... Optimization for dynamic pages too !?!? 3

[JoJoH]

Hi all,

One of my competitor is doing something highly successful in terms of search engine rankings that is totally puzzling to me... He uses PHP, the result of his pages are generated dynamically. For example if I search for "golf balls" at Google, his results would turn up and the URL look something like this www.somesite.com/products.php?name="golfballs", now I follow that link into his golf balls page and view source, his page is perfectly optimize with the keyword "Golf balls". Now say I search for "golf clubs" at Google, his results would turn up and the URL look something like this www.somesite.com/products.php?name="golfclubs". The URL is almost identical except for the difference in the "name=" part. Now I follow that link into his golf clubs page, I view source and the page is perfectly optimize with the keyword "Golf clubs", I mean, it is the same "products.php" page, just with different variables! How could it be optimize for different keywords? I am just totally puzzled. Could someone please give me some ideas?

Thanks in advance for your time! If anything seems unclear, please let me know

 

[mThomas]

Having keywords in your links is one way to assist your ranking. There are probably multiple other reasons why the search results are as you mention.

Can you post some actual links, including your own, so we can look at the various reasons why the ranking is as you describe?

mike

 

[foxdev]

JoJoH, I'm not sure if you're saying that the page is "the same page" except for substititon of the keywords, or if you simply mean that he uses the same PHP script to generate content for multiple product lines.

The former is very suspicious, and it could get penalized by Google. But this is only true if it truly is merely replacing the keywords and leaving all of the other content the same.

The latter is perfectly acceptable, and is quite common. On some of my sites, I have a script called WIDGETS.MV, and depending on the parameters passed (WIDGETS.MV?C=BLUEWIDGETS), it displays different products based on a database lookup.

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http://www.art-factory-outlet.com

 

[ulteriormotif]

As foxdev mentioned, if the page actually features the different products, then it is perfectly legitimate use of a database.

If though, the page pulls up a page saying 'you searched for "golfclubs"... we don't have "golfclubs" but check out our related products..." etc, then this is a bit cheeky of them.

It gives the appearance that they are somehow tapping into Google's search and generating a live response that doesn't answer your question, but attempts to take you off into related (or unrelated) stuff.

The trick is that somewhere on their site they probably have a 'search' option. This is set to capture all the things that their visitors search for, whether they stock it or not, and store it in a database. The database is then generates these pages that look like they are responding to your search, but in fact they are an old response to one of their visitor's searches.

"but Google doesn't crawl databases" I hear you say. You are right. The final step of the trick is to generate pages that are crawlable (sitemap style) that link to all these query results. The query results are then crawled, indexed by Google, and bingo, you get what appears to be a live search result.

Clever trick, but absolutely a spam technique. It also doesn't necessarily get you the visitor response you might hope for, as visitors quickly get the impression that you are wasting their time and only trying to divert them.

 

[JoJoH]

Thank you mThomas, foxdev, ulteriormotif for your answers! Actually, I think what my competitor did was perfectly legitimate since he is selling what he advertised. I think how he did it was he have a database full of keywords for his meta tags and his titles, and depending on the criteria, he then has a script that will draw the keywords from the database and insert those keywords into the meta tags and title tag. What I still don't understand is how did he get Google to index that page? I mean, Google will index his page with the criteria "Golf clubs" and also that exact same page with the criteria "Golf balls"! It is kind of hard to explain the situation, maybe showing you an example will clear things up a little. Go to Google and type in chanel shoes, then type in gucci handbags, then type in prada handbags. Take note of the first result returned for each item you searched on, look at his URL. Notice his page is the same just with different variables. Now follow his link and enter into his site, view source, you'll notice his keywords are different even it is the same page. I think after you look at his URL it will be more clear. Please advice.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

 

[ulteriormotif]

"Notice his page is the same just with different variables. "

I see what you're saying, but you're missing the point about database pages. Each of those variables attached to the 'products.php' effectively makes it a different file.

Try thinking of [products.php] as the TEMPLATE name, and

[products.php?name="golfclubs"] as the FILE name.

Does that help?

As I said above, the trick is that he needs to have another page on the site with hyperlinks to all those different [products.php?name="golfclubs"]FILE names, and that will let Google crawl them.

This is the power of databases. I have one site of some 1,500 pages of products which actually consists of three "real" files:

* an index file...
* a product menu template from which I generate 50 or so product menus...
* a product detail template from which I generate about 1200 individual product pages.

.. obviously there are a few other 'real' pages for contact details and sundry other information, but the core of the site is those three templates.

 

[JoJoH]

Thank you ulteriormotif! I am so glad to know that there are actually some ways to make Google claw my dynamic pages, thank you once again!

Anyways, regarding your site which you use this technique, do you submit your whole site to Google or do you just submit the page with all the links to Google?

Does your site rank well using this technique?

Using a database to populate my meta tags and titles are an extremely wonderful idea, but is it a legitimate idea? The reason I ask this was because I've read quite a few search engine books yet I don't see anything regarding this technique... is there anything wrong with it?

Please advice.

Many thanks for your help!

 

[gus121]

Hi JOJO.
Using a database to populate meta tags is a totally legitimate way to create a e-commerce website and his been very successful in the websites I Support and work on.

I think the point to understand is that a search engine can only see's the compiled HTML similar to what you see in your browser if you view the source code.

As for enlisting your browser in google. While you only need to do this once i believe and the google spider will crawl the website Indexing all the pages. Multiple enlisting i believe pay penalise your site (i am bit grey on this).

However to realistically get a top hit in search engines such as google for an e-commerce type site unfortunately advertising with the search engine is the only way this likely to be guaranteed .

My question to the guys is. I am intrigued by the idea of using keywords in the URL string after the question mark. Does anyone know if this is likely to improve the chances of a search engine hitting a particular page better than say a product ID?

e.g somewhere.com?PID=123
instead use
e.g somewhere.com?PID=Sailing-Watches


kind regards


Angus

 

[JoJoH]

Hi Angus,

Thank you Angus for your answer!

Sorry for the delay in replying, I didn't even know you've posted a reply! Because normally tek-tips will sent me a notification email when someone have posted, but they weren't able to sent me notification emails lately even my email in my profile is correct... weird...

Anyways, regarding submitting pages to Google, on your sites that ranked well, do you just submit your home page to Google? Or do you submit your home page and a site map? Or do you submit your home page and the pages that you want to index? Which way worked best according to your experience?

As for your question, I do think it would help since some search engines now give points to normal URL strings with targeted keywords in them(e.g.

http://www.somewhere.com/watches/sailing-watches.asp,

you could probably get points for "watches" and "sailing watches" in your URL), I mean if they give points to keywords in a normal URL, why not in dynamic URLS too? Now some search engines could index dynamic pages and URLS too, I don't see any reason why having a keyword in a dynamic URL string won't help. Anyways, that is just my opnion... Even if they don't give points to that tactic currently, I believe in the future the search engines probably would. If you need more advices and point of views, it would be wise to start a new thread since it seems to me those people that are here to answer questions tends to look at the newest threads first. Anyways, since it is a different question, why not start a new thread? )

Thanks again for your help!

Cheers,
JoJoH

 

[ulteriormotif]

"I am so glad to know that there are actually some ways to make Google claw my dynamic pages"

Historically the SEs haven't coped too well with dynamic pages, but they're doing better all the time now. Hint: keep the string to one or perhaps two parameters - the longer the URL string, the more likely they are to have problems.

"Do you submit your whole site to Google or do you just submit the page with all the links to Google?"

Home page only. And only submit once - this monthly resubmission thing is a crock. Google will crawl the whole site from the home page. More importantly than submitting though, is that you get incoming links to the site from other sites. Google loves sites that other sites love; so much so that with an incoming link or two you won't need to submit - Google will crawl you from those links.

"Does your site rank well using this technique?"

Yes. Of course it does rely on you being good with your SEO techniques. If you can't get a single page to rank well, you won't get a database page to rank well, and vice versa.

"Using a database to populate my meta tags and titles are an extremely wonderful idea, but is it a legitimate idea? "

Perfectly. And the only sensible way to handle large sites. You think Microsoft is all handcoded? Or Amazon?

"The reason I ask this was because I've read quite a few search engine books yet I don't see anything regarding this technique... is there anything wrong with it?"

You don't think they're going to give you ALL the secrets for $9.95 plus postage do you?

For gus121:

"However to realistically get a top hit in search engines such as google for an e-commerce type site unfortunately advertising with the search engine is the only way this likely to be guaranteed."

If 'Guaranteed' is your requirement, then yes. It should be noted though that Google does not accept paid listings in the SERPs - your options there are the Adwords listings to the right, or the one or two coloured listings at the top of some of the serps - don't know offhand how to access these, but unless your word is incredibly competitive, I wouldn't bother. It is, however, entirely possible to achieve top rankings for ANY search term in Google depending on your SEO skills and dedication to the task, without payment.

"I am intrigued by the idea of using keywords in the URL string after the question mark. Does anyone know if this is likely to improve the chances of a search engine hitting a particular page better than say a product ID?"

by 'hitting' I assume you mean better placement in SERPs. In short, my testing indicates yes, there is a marginal advantage in it.

 

[ulteriormotif]

I should clarify re Google's premium listings and Adwords. I have used Adwords on a couple of occasions, but have not used premium listings therefore do not know much about them.

Adwords is a good service and there is a good ROI available on many sectors. I know many webmasters who pretty much run their entire sites from Adwords traffic and don't bother with SEO at all.

However most of my sectors are traditionally not profitable on a PPC basis. Inattention to editing my post above spliced two separate thoughts.

"unless your word is incredibly competitive, I wouldn't bother."

should have read more like:

"unless your keyphrase is incredibly competitive, you can achieve very good rankings with good SEO techniques. Many of my markets have been in awkward but only averagely competitive sectors, so for those I wouldn't bother"

 

[JoJoH]

Thank you ulteriormotif! Just to make sure, so I shouldn't submit my site map? Just my home page? Would Google REALLY crawl the dynamic pages of my site that I have not submitted?

Please advice

Thanks in advance.

 

[ulteriormotif]

*lol* yes, JoJoH, Google really WILL crawl all those pages.

That is, of course, as long as they are reachable via links from other pages on the site, and the links must be able to be followed by Google (eg, plain html links are good, but not javascript links).

It does help to keep your navigation "shallow", eg, every page should ideally be reachable within about three clicks from the home page - Google will still get to them if they are deeper, it just might take an update or two.

In fact, with my last site (the one mentioned above) I did not submit to Google at all. I knew that the monthly deep crawl was starting and expected Google's deepcrawler to arrive at my existing sites within about four days, so I just put up a link from one existing site to my new site's homepage, and waited. Google was running a day late, but it did indeed crawl my existing site five days later and visited the homepage of my new site the same day. It then came back another four days later and took about half of my new site. All on the basis of one incoming link. The following month when Deep came back she took the whole site.

 

[ulteriormotif]

I must really learn to finish a thought before pressing 'submit'.

Deep might well have taken the whole site in that first month if I'd had a couple more links to it, but time was short to go link hunting, so I thought I'd see what one link would achieve.

The reason, incidentally, for submitting the homepage rather than the sitemap is simply that any incoming links to the site would likely be to the homepage, so it just makes it that bit easier for Google.

 

[JoJoH]

Thank you ultramotif!!! You are just wonderful!!! Thank you for all your time and all your wonderful advices! Too bad I've already given you your stars, I would love to give you more!

Thank you once again!

 

[JoJoH]

Hi ulteriormotif,

One more question!!

"That is, of course, as long as they are reachable via links from other pages on the site, and the links must be able to be followed by Google (eg, plain html links are good, but not javascript links)."

Are dynamically generated links good? Will Google follow them??

Please advice

Thanks in advance.

 

[ulteriormotif]

"Are dynamically generated links good? Will Google follow them??"

Yep, they're fine. Remember to avoid too many parameters in the string... one should be fine, but when you start getting "&"s in your string the spider might have trouble getting to those pages. Consider using .htaccess or something to rewrite the URLs for long strings.

 

[JoJoH]

Hi ulteriormotif,

Thanks for the reply! What is ".htaccess "??

Please advice.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ulteriormotif]

Apache server stuff... not for the fainthearted.

These will tell you a little more:

http://www.javascriptkit.com/howto/htaccess.shtml

http://baremetal.com/gadgets/htaccess/

Google search will bring up tonnes of information.

 

[technoknow]

I know this post is old but I ran across a site:

http://www.buildingastore.com/1/

The 1 can be replaced with any number.

If you click on any of the keywords if takes you to the same page:

http://www.buildingastore.com/

This is spamming right? Why would someone go through all of the trouble to do this, the visitors have to be leaving after they find out it isn't a legimate hit on their keyword.

TechNoKnow