One hundred and what?

[mscallisto]

Most say 103 as one hundred and three.

I believe it should be one hundred three (no and) if it represents one count.

There are one hundred three apples on that tree.

There are one hundred and three implies there are two groups being counted.

There are one hundred and three pieces of fruit in the basket, mostly apples but three are oranges.

Am I correct or do I need grammar lessons?

 

[sleipnir214]

I was taught that the insertion of the and was correct. But I can't find any references to support this.

I do not think, though, that one hundred and three does not imply two counts.


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[strongm]

British English includes the 'and'. American English seems to have regional variation. Other Englishes...who knows...

 

[mscallisto]

sleipnir214

Does your double negative mean you do believe it does imply two counts?

 

[sleipnir214]

Sorry. That will teach me to reread my post after an edit.

No. I think that, regardless of the presence or absence of the word and, it's still one count.

The and is probably idiomatic -- remember that English used to use the form three and thirty, as German still does with drei and drei[ß]ig


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[sleipnir214]

Another example, somewhat archaic but more poetic, would be from Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address:

Four score and seven years ago

I don't think that President Lincoln was referring to two counts of years. I think he meant literally "87 years ago".


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[Dimandja]

In the same vein, to say "90", Belgians say "nonante" (ninety), while the French say "quatre vingt dix" (4-20-10). Go figure. Regionality reigns.

 

[chessbot]

I learned that the "and" signified a decimal, meaning
one hundred three = 103
one hundred and three = 100.3

But I may be completely off.

--Chessbot

"See the TURTLE of enormous girth!"
-- Stephen King, The Dark Tower series

 

[hawks]

and
Function: conjunction
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German unti and
1 -- used as a function word to indicate connection or addition especially of items within the same class or type; used to join sentence elements of the same grammatical rank or function

 

[Zathras]

Perhaps it depends on the meter?

A hundred and one pounds of fun...
"South Pacific"

 

[CajunCenturion]

I too believe that using 'and' is correct.
One hundred and three ==> 103.

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[medic]

one hundred and three = 100.3

Should it read one hundred point three instead?

 

[ChrisHunt]

The "and" is correct in British usage, missing it out just sounds weird. It's only used to seperate numbers less than 100 from those which are greater:

1099 = One thousand and ninety-nine.
1100 = One thousand, one hundred.
1101 = One thousand, one hundred and one.
1110 = One thousand, one hundred and ten.

Actually, with four-digit numbers, english speakers might follow the convention used when talking about years (especially if they are years!):

1099 = Ten ninety-nine
1100 = Eleven hundred
1101 = Eleven oh one
1110 = Eleven ten

The year convention breaks down a bit with dates between 999BC and 999AD. Whilst "I sold 337 apples" would (probably) always be said "I sold three hundred and thirty-seven apples", "Constantine died in 337AD" might be said...

Constantine died in three thirty-seven AD
Constantine died in three hundred and thirty-seven AD
Constantine died in three three seven AD

depending on the personal preference of the person speaking. I suppose those years do not come up in conversation frequently enough for any consensus to be reached (I presume that places where they do come up a lot - history faculties, for example - do establish a local consensus).

Closer to home, some folk would call the current year "Two thousand and four" whilst others prefer "Twenty oh four". I think both will agree on "Twenty ten" when we get to 2010.

Incidentally, mscallisto, this is a pretty contrived example:

There are one hundred and three pieces of fruit in the basket, mostly apples but three are oranges.

Are you suggesting that, adjusting the apple/orange ratio, we should say the following?:

There are ninety-nine and four pieces of fruit in the basket, mostly apples but four are oranges.

There are one hundred one and two pieces of fruit in the basket, mostly apples but two are oranges.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[mscallisto]

ChrisHunt

Actually it wasn't contrived, I thought if that example as I composed the post.

No I'm not suggesting re-writing my example to accomodate a ratio change, my post was titled "one hundred and what" and I was simply asking the question, am I correct in assuming there are two counts when the word (and) is used.

I'm still not convinced either way.

Convince me please or I'll forever be known as the Boston guy that had to be corrected by a CajunCenturion even if he/she does own this forum.

 

[CajunCenturion]

To answer your question, "(A)m I correct in assuming there are two counts when the word (and) is used?", I would not assume there are two counts.

As stated by others, the use of 'and' is proper in British usage, and almost universally accepted in American usage when pronouncing indiviudal numbers. No one will shoot you if you do not use 'and', but using 'and' to signify two counts would be, at least in my opinion, misinterpreted by most folks. If you have two counts, then I would make it clear by using a different word to differentiate between the counts. In keeping with the selected, contrived example:
One hundred and three ==> One Count
One hundred plus three ==> Two counts that are being combined, or added together.

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[mscallisto]

but using 'and' to signify two counts would be, at least in my opinion, misinterpreted by most folks."

I agree, "misinterpreted by most folks" was my point from the start. I believed the 'and' [maybe] shouldn't be there.

I also agree that most Americans include the 'and' plus I'll take your word that 'and' is proper in British usage.

I'm also happy that you started this forum that allows crazies like me to ask questions on a subject that's facinating...the crazy English language!

 

[CajunCenturion]

Thank you mscallisto. All crazies are welcome, and the more the merrier. We are all in good company.

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[chessbot]

medic:
I learned that both refer to the same thing.

I believe the more common American pronounciation is
"A-hunnerd-'n'-three"


--Chessbot

"See the TURTLE of enormous girth!"
-- Stephen King, The Dark Tower series

 

[mbarron]

In math class I was taught that 103 is read as one hundred three. "And" is only used when decimals were invlovled. 100.3 is read as one hundred and three tenths or one hundred point three.


Mike

 

[chessbot]

Ah! Someone agrees with me (sort of...)

--Chessbot

"See the TURTLE of enormous girth!"
-- Stephen King, The Dark Tower series