Okay to learn on the clock?

[kornork]

Hey,

I'm a recent grad, working my first database/programming job, so there's a lot of things that I need to pick up before I can be fully functional. I know that a certain amount of on the job learning is expected, and that it shouldn't be a problem if my employer sees me digging through a reference book.

But is it a problem if I'm hunkered down, reading all the way through a book to learn something from scratch? I wasn't expected to know what I'm learning when I was hired, but I've decided it would make my job easier. Is this something I should do on my own time?


Thanks,
Josh

 

[CajunCenturion]

Yes and No.

No, I don't think it's a problem if what you're trying to learn is directly related to a specific task or function that you've been assigned. That's necessary for doing the job at hand. On the other hand, learning things not directly related probably should be best done on your own time.

That being said, if you have some slack time, then I would not only think it's okay, but would encourage spending that time studying and learning.

Above all, the job comes first.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[carp]

Concur with CajunCenturion. If it's something you can use on the job and studying doesn't preclude getting your work done on time, then study! But I WOULD make sure your boss knows/understands/agrees with what you are doing.

 

[BlaineR]

Hi Josh,

Congratulations on the first job!

In my experience, there's no problem with learning on the job, whether that's reading through a manual or whatever. Most programmers have lots of manuals on hand, in fact.

I think if you have been tasked to do a certain project or bit of work, as long as you have not outright lied or exaggerated about your qualifications, then there should be no problem reading up on things as you go along. On the other hand, if you have exaggerated, then you should probably do the reading only on your own time until you have as much knowledge as you stated.

But I don't get the impression that you did exaggerate, rather your boss seems to know what your qualifications are and s/he is confident you'll do what you need to to get the work done. After all, the alternative is for you to try to muddle through by trial-and-error or to simply not do the work at all.

I'm not sure you ought to read the manuals cover to cover all day for weeks before you start doing stuff, though. That could be a bit of a problem, or at least not look too good. But as long as you are making some progress on your work, you're probably okay. Personally, I'd be taking the manual home with me, too, and doing the bulk of my reading there. Doing that will give you a bit of an overview, and allow you to quickly find what you need to during the time you are working.

On the OTHER other hand, if you have been asked to program in Java on a project and you are using the time to learn Cobol from scratch, then that would be a problem!

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Best of luck with the job. Keep on learning!

Blaine

 

[DrJavaJoe]

Well I guess it all depends on what your overall reponsibilities are. Take care of your responsibilities then when you have down time my guess is that you would be expected to spend time learing. Personally I would tend to spend most of the reading time at home and then during work hours try to implement the new found knowledge.

 

[infinitelo]

The company invested in you for you education, which in the it idustry, would include the ability to learn. If it takes reading the manual from cover to cover, do it when ever you can. just keep the on the job reading in perspective. If your uncomfortable doing it on the job, be open, talk to the boss, or your peers. Hey your the new guy you dont know what company culture is like. It will be differnt per company. some will encourage you to learn on the job others will feel you should know everything everywhere you go.


if it is to be it's up to me

 

[kornork]

Thanks all for your replies!

I had never intended to learn something completely off the path, so I'm not worried about that.

As for talking to my boss and finding out what his opinions are, I'm still trying to maintain the facade that I know what I'm doing!

I think it would be a lot different if there was "downtime," where I was expected not to have a lot of work, but I'm working on an open-ended project, with no deadlines (or, for that matter, even status updates, which might be a separate thread). So it's easier in the sense that I have plenty of time to read without looking like I am avoiding my work, but it's harder in the sense that I have to maintain a good balance between getting work done and learning more about the system on my own.

How many of you have actually read one of those 800 pound USING XXXXXX books at work, cover to cover?

Thanks for your advice,
Josh

 

[chiph]

I'm all for learning stuff that relates to your job. But some bosses have a problem with people kicked back with their feet on the desk while reading, even if it's something like "Windows Server 2003 Administration" and you're the server admin.

So, I think it depends on the environment you find yourself in.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[DrJavaJoe]

Leave the 'USING XXXXXX books at work' for at home reading I would bring reference books to work. Then just jump in and do as much as you can then when stuck turn to the books, then google, then Tek-Tips, this is truly the quickest way to learn.

 

[RoguePoet01]

Knowledge is power.

Every professional worth their salt has to stick their nose into a book now and then.

Books (and the internet for that matter) are phyisical extensions of our brains.

Only the "old school" type of manager would have a problem with one of his or her people educating themselves in regards to their work duties. "Old school" managers tend to think that activity is work, but there's not a lot of apparent activity when someone is sitting at his or her desk planning and learning.

We are living in the information age, and 90% of what we do is information oriented, so filling your head with more information can't possibly be a contradiction.

 

[nevets2001uk]

I found myself ina similar sort of situation a while ago when I joined my current employer. I was taken on as a trainee so in a way they expected me to still be learning as I worked.

I started working on an ASP.NET online store with no prior knowledge as they wanted to have a better web presence. They had no problem with me learning on the job and were happy to buy all the reference books I needed.

So long as your manager is okay with you spending some time with your nose in a book or on websites then I'd say go for it. Assuming what your learning can be a benefit to the comapany then it shouldn't be a problem. It saves the company of training costs as well I guess.

The only thing I'd say is try to avoid reading cover to cover while working. It could be seen as taking it too far. I try to learn what I need to know for a particular task and then come back for more information later as needed. That way your company isn't losing all of your time to learning.

If in doubt, ask! I myself have been in the situation where I was worried asking questions might make me stupid but I did anyway and it cleared things up. All companies are different, so asking what their policies are like should not be a problem. If anything it at least proves that you respect their rules.

Steve Gordon

 

[SQLSister]

MY feeling on learning onthe job.

1. Anything that you have to research to do the immediate task at hand is actual work and thus acceptable.

2. If you have slack time, any learning that concerns the technologies you are actually using at work or technologies that you are planning to use is acceptable. It is not accepatble if you are missing project deadlines however.

3. Learning new technologies at work that your company (or division) doesn't use or plan to use is almost always unacceptable. Reading books from cover to cover is almost always unacceptable.

 

[Tracey]

And a lot depends on employment contracts (if you have them)

I have signed a contract agreeing that my technical knowledge belongs to my company, and i will not make any money from it in my own time. This means that if I am learning anything IT related, I can charge the time I take to my Company, even if I am at home.

That being said, I am also very fortunate to have a boss that encourages me to "enlarge his knowledge pool". I even get paid while I am in classes.

As for the "facade of knowing what you are doing", surely if your boss hired you from graduation, he/she cannot expect you to know what you are doing yet.



Tracey
Remember... True happiness is not getting what you want...

Its wanting what you have got!

 

[kornork]

Wow Tracey, I don't know if I would want to sign a contract like that. I want to use everything that I learn to further my career, and I think right now that's going to involve working on the side to solidify those skills. So I'm perfectly happy doing all of my learning regarding Access and VBA at work, and then taking it home and putting it on my resume

SQLSister,
Several people have mentioned this "slack time," but I'm at a loss as to whether (and how much) I have it. I have no deadlines, and my project's specs are largely defined by me. Currently I'm looking at my application and trying to find weaknesses, reading up on the subject on Tek-tips and in my books, and then trying to figure out a fix. Soon, of course, I'm going to run out of things that I can fix. At that point, could "all time at work" be slack time? That doesn't really seem fair to my employer though.

-Josh

 

[Tracey]

Well i look at it like this Kornork:
The company who owns my knowledge is paying me competatively, and for (if i wish to log it) all of my computer learning, even after hours (I still have not graduated, started this job 3 years ago after ony 2 years study). This of course means that (esp as a solo mother working part-time) I can catch up on my hours at any time.

One day when i get too big for this company, or they change their policies and i no longer like them, i can leave and then all the knowledge i have is mine to use. Nothing to stop me from putting it on my Resume.

Who can complain about being paid to "surf the net"?

I guess my point is this:
any good IT boss will know that the knowledge you gain will make you more efficient at your job. How can they not approve of a newbie learning on the clock?

I have a "slack time" too at present, and often fill it in the same way. But for now.. Im learning Delphi .NET - arrgghh


Tracey
Remember... True happiness is not getting what you want...

Its wanting what you have got!

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Goto your employeer and tell them that you've done all you can, as you see it, with the given application.

Something I do at works is multitasking
I actual have articles read to me via text-2-speech engine while working.

Thus I spend very little time actually reading on this, or other, site. So I can work on what I'm doing and listen to my music and listen to posts all at the same time. This has the side effect of making me more capible of handling multiple problems at once. Something women can do easily is follow multiple conversations at once. Men's brains work differently and men have a hard time following multiple conversations at once. But as with almost anything we can get better at it with practice.

I'd suggest starting this type of practice at home because at first listening to one thing and doing another is not very productive.



Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[SQLSister]

kornok, as long as you are making progress that is acceptable on your assigned task, you should be fine. However, it seems to me that you and your boss need to chat more about what is expected on the task and what the deadlines are as your guidelines are a little too fuzzy and can come back to bite you later when it turns out you didn't do what they expected even though they never clarified.

It is in your best interests to try to get clarification as to due dates and expected task progress if it is not offered. When you have fixed everything you can fix, then you need to make sure that your boss is aware of that. preferably let him know ahead of time that you are approaching that point. It is his job to assign you another task.

But in the IT world sometimes the next task is not yet ready to begin (I.e. the contract hasn't been signed yet or any number of other things delaying a start), when that happens you have slack time. I have found that it is always in your best interests to find something productive to during slack time (learning new technologies, small projects to benefit the organization you work for, etc) and always make sure your boss knows you have finished all assigned tasks.

 

[kornork]

All of you are correct: I need to go to my boss and have a chat with him about my project and how much time he should expect to see me reading in my cubicle. Unfortunately, the lines of communication are not as open as I would like them to be (which I would like to believe is not entirely my fault), so I will heed your advice as best I can, and stick to learning what is directly needed for my job unless I have explicit slack time.

SemperFiDownUnda,
I'm sorry, I don't think I'll ever be able to multitask like that. I have trouble listening to the radio and playing solitaire, or listening to a book on tape while I drive! In addition, I doubt my cubicle neighbors would appreciate the chaos of noise coming from my workspace

Thanks guys for your replies!

-Josh

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

earphones
Like I said It takes practice.

I've even wrote a VB program that strips out the posts on these forums and reads them to me with a click of a button


Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[DrJavaJoe]

I've even wrote a VB program that strips out the posts on these forums and reads them to me with a click of a button Did someone say: "Too Much Time at Tek-Tips"

"Two strings walk into a bar. The first string says to the bartender: 'Bartender, I'll have a beer. u.5n$x5t?*&4ru!2[sACC~ErJ'. The second string says: 'Pardon my friend, he isn't NULL terminated'."