Microsoft certification

[BobLewiston]

Do employers really put much stock in Microsoft certification for programmers?

 

[MDXer]

I believe that having a MS cert is important to employers when.

1) You are fairly new to a technology it does provide some scale for the employer to gauge that you actually are familiar with the technology in question.

2) The company is an MS partner. Employees with certs help maintain or increase various partner levels. Having a number number of employees with a specific certification allows the company to hold a competency in that technology.

3) Consulting companies that specialize in MS products and do MS training like to have certifications of various types to give clients the warm fuzzy that people know what they are doing.

It all really depends on the certification as a BI person someone with DBA certs doesn't mean anything, and having taken the BI tests myself you really need to know your stuff to pass them so it does show me that someone may be qualified.

 

[ousoonerjoe]

My wife works in HR. She says a degree carries much more weight than a cert. Certs do help, but not nearly as much as bachelors degree (or better). Associates degrees are helpful, but HR does not put a lot into those either. The way she put it was certs were used as 'tie-breakers' between two equally qualified candidates. They look at experience and level of college education first and foremost. That's the HR view (who you have to get past first before you can get your interview with the IT management). She told me she would hire someone with a 4 year degree and no experience over someone with no degree, 1 cert and 2 years experience. The college thing is really big with them. In most cases the mandate comes down from the CEO/CFO/President/etc. that employees of certain areas have a degree. The certs really help with the IT managers. They are the ones that like to see certs combined with experience relative to the cert.

--------------------------------------------------
"...and did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!"

"Don't stop him. He's roll'n."
--------------------------------------------------

 

[MDXer]

I think the people who make the mandates would be shocked to learn the actual quality and skill level they lose with these mandates. I'm not saying everyone without a degree would be a good candidate just like every degree holder isn't, but to simply discount someone for a lack of a degree is stupid. I have no degree and only have a cert because my last employeer made me get it so their MS partnership. They hired a number of degree holders one with a masters who after 9 months still are unproductive.

 

[ousoonerjoe]

I agree and have had many discussions about it. I have an Assoc. degree, and no certs, but i do have 10 years in the field. All the degree did was get me into the programming field. It was the 'foot in the door' with entry level pay. 10 years later my degree and certs (if i had any) are really pointless unless I go back and get my bachelors. That is the only wall I run into at times. I've worked for 2 companies that didn't care about the certs, but the owners capped me out because I didn't have a 4 year degree. Didn't care if it was in CS or not, just cared that I had one.

I don't know how many 'Certified Computer Science Bachelors' I have had to train in the past. It's ridiculous. The boot camps make it so that all you need to know is theory and memorize the book for the day. Oh they have incredible ideas, but when you tell them to 'implement' them, they have no idea how. Yet, we get paid less and have to work harder. I'll take a 'geek' that has 'tinkered' (more than just play video games obviously) with computers since he/she was 9 years old over a newly graduated CS bachelors with no experience more times than not. There is a lot to be said about being self taught. The passion and love for the job generally makes it easier and willingness to train/learn new things is always there..... ok...enough of the two cents.

--------------------------------------------------
"...and did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!"

"Don't stop him. He's roll'n."
--------------------------------------------------

 

[Bandenjamin]

One thing that seems to be ignored is that it is impossible for HR to determine that you have tinkered with computers since you were 9 years old. They only have the documentation on your resume to go by, and a statement like that would probably not be as helpful as you would like.

A degree from an accredited school shows that you have skills beyond programming in language xyz. In the process of obtaining said degree you have to work with a variety of individuals from various backgrounds, various skill sets and through projects that are not only interesting to you, but on things you would rather never have learned. The ability to persevere through this is what the degree proves. It shows that you are willing to do what it takes, regardless if it's something you enjoy.

These are many of the reasons why HR recruiters (and many owners/managers in companies) look for a degree. Regardless of how much you love what you do there will always be unpleasant aspects of that job. A degree is a way to measure just how committed you are to doing what you say you want to do.

A cert can be gotten with a weekend of cramming and being good a testing. While these may be useful skills, (that many people practice while obtaining that degree) they are not nearly as far stretching as a degree.


--Dan
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain

 

[58sniper]

My wife works in HR. She says a degree carries much more weight than a cert.

I disagree strongly with that. The last three employers I've had didn't even ask about educational background. They wanted certs and experience. And we're not talking your entry level jobs here. We're talking six figure jobs with some substance.

I've talked to my friends who work at one of the largest IT staffing companies in the U.S., and they say the same thing.

A college degree means nothing. What is taught is out of date when it's taught, so it certainly can't add anything that a certification can add. A cert is much more narrow focused on the type of work you're focused on than a degree.

Pat Richard MVP
Plan for performance, and capacity takes care of itself. Plan for capacity, and suffer poor performance.

http://www.ucblogs.net/blogs/exchange/

 

[MDXer]

The reasoning some people use for a degree showing the ability to commit and finish something I believe is overated in some areas of IT. If an individual is in over their head or can't keep up I don't want them to stick with it. I want them out so I can bring in someone who can do the work.

A degree does carry value and in various IT areas the may be more applicable. But when it comes to really understanding how to do something the only thing that shows someone can do it is experience.

 

[ousoonerjoe]

I'm just re-iterating what she and many of her co-workers (also in HR) have stated. Executive Management typically does not care about certs, they want degrees. They make a blanket statement about degrees and do not allow for exceptions. It's an argument that we've had many of times. I agree, it is asinine to disregard experience over education, but open the paper and how many posting do you see that require Certs, and how many require Degrees? Certs are usually "Preferred but not Required" while the degrees are typically "Bachelors Required will substitute for Assoc AND 4 years experience" or something similar.

I will also add that in many (not all) companies, you must have a Degree to be promoted beyond a certain level. They don't care about Certs, just degrees in mid to upper management. Without the degree, you'll be perpetually stuck at the glass ceiling getting nothing more than the annual cost of living increases. A friend of mine is faced with that right now. 17 years in the field programming and because he doesn't have a degree, he's capped out.

I'm not disregarding certs all together. They do help. They do have their purpose, but in regards to the original question, Yes, they put some stock in certs, but not nearly as much as they do for degrees. I'm not debating which is right, just answering the question that was presented to us.

--------------------------------------------------
"...and did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!"

"Don't stop him. He's roll'n."
--------------------------------------------------

 

[cryptoadm]

A college degree means nothing.

That is the dumbest comment I have read in quite a long time.

The last three employers I've had didn't even ask about educational background. They wanted certs and experience. And we're not talking your entry level jobs here. We're talking six figure jobs with some substance.

I have never been asked if I had any certs but have been asked about my college background and degrees.

What is taught is out of date when it's taught, so it certainly can't add anything that a certification can add.

A stupid comment which it stands on its own.

MVP

Case study: What is an MVP? Most Valuable Player? They give those during college football games and corporations donate money for causes in the mvp's name. But people know what MS, PhD, DDS, MSEd, MA, EdS, and other educational degrees are.

 

[cryptoadm]

a degree showing the ability to commit and finish something

That is not what obtaining a degree is about. I can say that going fishing and staying until all the bait is used is showing the ability to commit and finish something, but that won't get me a job.

A college education: shapes communication skills; expands your knowledge base; more inclined to continue to learn throughout life; more intellectual interests; more flexible in your views; more willing to appreciate differences in others; tend to have children with greater learning potential; save more money; make better investments; are able to deal with bureaucracies, the leagl system, tax laws; more concerned with wellness and preventative health care and thus live longer and healthier.

 

[58sniper]

Case study: What is an MVP? Most Valuable Player?

http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/

I have never been asked if I had any certs but have been asked about my college background and degrees.

I get asked about experience more than certs. A lot more. But certs come up in a conversation, whereas college doesn't. In fact, I'd have to go back about 10 years to the last employer that asked about education. It's not even on my resume.

But people know what MS, PhD, DDS, MSEd, MA, EdS, and other educational degrees are.

True, people know what most of those are. But a MS is no more qualified for a technical job than someone without a college degree (assuming similar experience, of course). The technical classes taught in a college are completely outdated, and certainly can't be used to any real advantage in the technical field. An individual could take a 1 week technical boot camp and have much more relevant, up to date, skills. I had a technical college ask me if I was interested in teaching classes. I looked at the curriculum and couldn't believe what I was seeing. When I compared it to classes at another college, it was essentially the same. When I asked my friends at the IT recruiting firm, they said that's one reason they don't look at technical degrees. They mean nothing. As a team leader, I'd grab an MCSE or MCITP before a college grad.

I'm not saying that people won't get anything out of a college degree. What I'm saying is that it does little in terms of technical jobs.

Pat Richard MVP
Plan for performance, and capacity takes care of itself. Plan for capacity, and suffer poor performance.

http://www.ucblogs.net/blogs/exchange/

 

[DonQuichote]

One thing that seems to be ignored is that it is impossible for HR to determine that you have tinkered with computers since you were 9 years old.

Now that would be laughable. That is exactly why HR exists, isn't it? To find good personnel, be able to recognize them and to keep them. If they cannot even recognize skills, they should be looking for a good HR person first.

Off course a good HR person does not need recognition skills himself, but can delegate those skills to other people within the company. But if HR does not WANT to recognize skills, the company has a real problem.

There is some things that come with certs: confidence. Usually, that confidence is overrated. Someone who has just got a cert is at the beginning of learning, not at the end of it.

The confidence is also a factor that should be accounted for in job interviews. Someone who played with his own home network since he was 9 year old, will have waited a long time before applying for a job as a network engineer. Why? First he feels that "home experience" does not count in a job interview and second because he encountered many more problems in his home setup than the "laboratory environment" of the certification company will ever give. The problems encountered also needed to be investigated and solved.

On the other hand, someone who has just got a cert is often believes or is even told that he can now apply for a job in it.

Certs mean to teach people to build a correct environment, but only experience can teach people to diagnose and repair an incorrect one.

In our company we found out that a cert is actually a negative indicator, unless followed by a lot of experience.

The real jewels tend to come from the "home freaks".


+++ Despite being wrong in every important aspect, that is a very good analogy +++
Hex (in Darwin's Watch)

 

[droidrepair]

Where I live, a degree opens many, many doors. I think the post referencing the utility of a degree related to interpersonal relationships is a good one.

I just got a new position. In the interviews, I was told they had talked to many people with great experience and certs but were not confident in the candidate's ability to interact effectively with clients or learn new skills outside their comfort zone. They liked the fact that I had two degrees in different subjects (neither in IT, one a graduate degree) because it demonstrated I could probably learn anything that I wanted. In fact, over the last 10 years I've moved into three completely different areas of IT for this very reason. (I just moved into my fourth)

Degrees or education in unrelated areas can help in IT. For example, I took some courses and became a volunteer EMT. This helped to get me an IT position at a medical facility.

Now, I'll say with a caveat that degrees are overpriced and have been devalued. Everyone DOES NOT have to have a degree for our society to function well, contrary to what many people think. I think that the huge cost of education brought on by loan programs is detrimental to young people. Schools are rushing out to get rid of shop classes and replace them with computer labs. Big mistake, everyone does NOT need to be a computer engineer and right now there is a huge shortage of people skilled blue collar workers. That said, a degree does act to get one into management and past the HR gate for certain positions, or in any position when times are tough.

I never went to school full time. For several years I was a heavy equipment operator and took two or three classes a semester until I got a degree. My university also accepted some of my work experience for credit. My company paid for this. Then I just continued on, every time my education would be reimbursed, and taking courses at community colleges/state universities.

In my last position, single IT guys with no obligations other than work were lamenting that they couldn't move ahead because they didn't have a degree. Meanwhile, they had been employees for 6 and 7 years and never took advantage of the company's 100% tuition reimbursement. They could have gotten degrees in that time frame. Keep learning and take advantage of all opportunities!

 

[ousoonerjoe]

I had a teacher in one of my early college computer classes tell us "The day you stop learning in this field is the day you should retire." In many respects he was right. With the rate at which technology advances, if you don't keep up and keep improving and building on the skills you have, you will be left behind. Employers want programmers that can fix a printer and manage the databases. They want Net Admins that are also Sys Admins and Web developers. Help desk is now starting to blur with Net/Sys Admin. The specialized IT worker is becoming a rare item any more. The degree is a great foundation to build on, and the Certs make for an excellent addition to the degree. They compliment each other.

To answer the OP's original question? Open the paper and/or scour Monster/hotJobs/etc. and look at the postings for your area. Are they asking for degrees or certs or both or neither? In my part of the word, few ask about certs, they're more interested in the degree and how many areas are you capable to assist in on top of your primary duties.


--------------------------------------------------
"...and did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!"

"Don't stop him. He's roll'n."
--------------------------------------------------

 

[58sniper]

"The day you stop learning in this field is the day you should retire."

I'm a firm believer in that myself.

The specialized IT worker is becoming a rare item any more.

Maybe in the SMB space.

The degree is a great foundation to build on, and the Certs make for an excellent addition to the degree. They compliment each other.

I think that depends. I can't, with ANY conviction, say that a degree in CIS/MIS is going to be of any help to an IT person. The stuff being covered in those classes is just way too outdated. Now - I'm not discounting the other, non-IT related stuff in college. Psychology, language, arts, stuff like that. Communications and interpersonal skills are certainly necessary. But I know at least a half dozen people in IT would started in IT without a college degree. And they all make considerably more than their IT degreed counterparts. Why? They have 2/4/6 years more of job experience in the field. And that is certainly worth more than everything else.

I used to work in the IT department of a national IT staffing firm. I would always talk to the recruiters about what they were looking for for our clients. "certifications" was always the first answer. So - everyone and their brother got an MCSE. A large portion of those were paper MCSEs. Quality of skills in applicants suffered for a while, and clients sent people back. "college" was next. So, people had to have some 4 year degree. That didn't last long at all. Now it's experience - college preferred, but experience trumps it. Certs are preferred, but experience trumps those, too. Why? Time for a story...

I worked for one of the big 3. They came out with a policy about administrators must be certified. They waived a big chunk of change (15,000) for those who got their MCSE. A coworker bought all of the books for the 7 tests. On a Monday, he'd start reading. Reading during lunch. Reading at night. On Friday, he'd take, and pass, the test. Following Monday, new book. MCSE in 7 weeks. The guy got his money, but on week 8, he couldn't tell you a darned thing. He was good at reading and taking tests. So the value of his MCSE (and, unfortunately, those around him because of it) was devalued considerably. Oh - he had a college degree. A bachelors degree.

The rest of us worked with the stuff day in and day out. Built labs and broke them. Got the experience.

Today, the lowest paid member of that team makes nearly twice what mr paper MCSE makes, as he constantly struggles to update his skills.

Experience trumps everything. I couldn't care less about someone's college experience. That just shows they can study and take tests. MCSE and MCITP are similar, but at least they're more current and focused.

Just my .02





Pat Richard MVP
Plan for performance, and capacity takes care of itself. Plan for capacity, and suffer poor performance.

http://www.ucblogs.net/blogs/exchange/

 

[tfg13]

Pat, to add to the fire, recently, I started looking for an online school. Ran across Davenport University (based out of Grand Rapids, MI). In the top 25 online schools according to geteducated.com. I looked at one of their curriculum's, in which I would be interested in getting a degree. "Information and Computer Security". All well and good right? Wrong!!! The curriculum's "major" looks very much like the 10 domains of CISSP. What exactly does that mean? To me it means someone is utilizing a certification as it's own curriculum. Does that make the degree better than the cert? In my opinion, no. One of the reasons is you need 5 years experience to get the cert, but don't need experience to get the degree.....

 

[58sniper]

A lot of schools are doing the degree/cert thing. One school here does the MCSE with an Associates degree. You end up with a paper MCSE - no experience, so it's worthless.

Pat Richard MVP
Plan for performance, and capacity takes care of itself. Plan for capacity, and suffer poor performance.

http://www.ucblogs.net/blogs/exchange/

 

[xwb]

Basically it is to get your foot in the door. It is the same with degrees etc. The employer doesn't know you from Adam so they have to have something they can base their judgement on. If you have something, say a degree then they might think that you are capable of working to the some capacity.

That is all it is - proof that you are capable of working to some capacity that the employer thinks will help them churn out products faster, better or more reliably. You don't really need a degree etc but you'll have a hard time convincing agents and employers that you are capable of doing the job.

You have to bear in mind that you are not just applying for a job: you're competing against a whole load of people for one job. You want the agent to put your CV on the interviewer's table and you want to get the interview. Once you are talking, you might somewhere but the CV has to get to the table first.

If a worthless cert will get your CV to the table, then go for it but be prepared to say what you've achieved by going for a worthless cert. Everyone makes mistakes and employers are quite happy to employ people who are brave enough to admit that they've made a mistake.

 

[mrdenny]

The big problem that I see with certs is that people are getting them to get into the industry. Certs (at least the Microsoft ones) are designed to be taken by people who have a year+ of experience in the field.

As an example, when I look at the info for Exam 70-443 (MCITP Database Admin (SQL 2005)).

Candidates for this exam are professional database administrators who optimize and maintain database solutions. They have three or more years dedicated to database work, which may include two or more of the following phases in the product lifecycle: design, development, deployment, optimization, maintenance, or support. The typical work environment is an enterprise or a midsize organization. Candidates should be experienced in using Microsoft SQL Server 2005.

Because there are so many people taking the exams with no little experience the exams end up looking useless.

I was at dinner after PASS in Seattle last week and was asking about what people thought of the MCP certs. They told me that pretty much everyone that they interviewed with any Microsoft Certs usually didn't know anything. Usually the people that knew the most didn't have certifications or college. Several of the people at diner either were just getting there BA, or didn't have one.

Denny
MVP
MCSA (2003) / MCDBA (SQL 2000)
MCTS (SQL 2005 / SQL 2008 Implementation and Maintenance / Microsoft Windows SharePoint Services 3.0: Configuration / Microsoft Office SharePoint Server 2007: Configuration)
MCITP Database Admin (SQL 2005/2008) / Database Dev (SQL 2005)

My Blog