BobLewiston
Programmer
Do employers really put much stock in Microsoft certification for programmers?
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Microsoft certification
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Absolutely correct. Certifications are not a path to knowledge. They are supposed to be a representation of the path you have already followed. You can't take a 3-week MCSE boot camp and come out of it knowing everything that I know, because I've worked in the field for 10+ years and THEN got the MCSE. Unfortunately, people don't market certs that way because it limits their target audience, and therefore their sales potential.
Degrees are a little different in that it takes years of sustained effort and learning to get one, along with a boatload of cash. Unfortunately, a degree with no experience is almost as useless as a cert with no experience. Experience trumps all in the IT industry. The technical skills that you learn getting your degree will be somewhat outdated by graduation day, and after 4 years in the field the degree largely becomes irrelevant. The only real purpose that it serves at that point is to give someone a checkbox they can mark on a requirements form.
Of course there are a few backwards-thinking companies that "require" a degree in all of their IT positions. Those companies (at least in the US) tend to be the exception, and not the rule. Most of those companies are also more than happy to make an exception for an otherwise well-qualified candidate. In all my years of experience I have never once been asked about whether I had a degree.
There was one employer that worked for on a contract basis through a consulting firm for awhile. After about 6 months they made an offer and I took it. A few months later HR was updating position descriptions and they found out that I didn't have a degree, so they changed the description to match.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
Degrees are a little different in that it takes years of sustained effort and learning to get one, along with a boatload of cash. Unfortunately, a degree with no experience is almost as useless as a cert with no experience. Experience trumps all in the IT industry. The technical skills that you learn getting your degree will be somewhat outdated by graduation day, and after 4 years in the field the degree largely becomes irrelevant. The only real purpose that it serves at that point is to give someone a checkbox they can mark on a requirements form.
Of course there are a few backwards-thinking companies that "require" a degree in all of their IT positions. Those companies (at least in the US) tend to be the exception, and not the rule. Most of those companies are also more than happy to make an exception for an otherwise well-qualified candidate. In all my years of experience I have never once been asked about whether I had a degree.
There was one employer that worked for on a contract basis through a consulting firm for awhile. After about 6 months they made an offer and I took it. A few months later HR was updating position descriptions and they found out that I didn't have a degree, so they changed the description to match.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
mrdenny
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- May 27, 2002
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I've had pretty much the same experience with regard to actual degree requirements. I've had only one company that actually required a degree (or so said the recruiter). I informed them that it was their loss and never heard back from them.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think you can tell, based on what was said, who has a degree and who has a cert. Everyone's comments are valid, but everyone is speaking for the most part from personal experience. We'd all like to think that our own personal experiences reflect industry wide trends, but that's not often a good recipe for success. So please keep that in mind as you evaluate what others have said as you map out what you own life's plan.
I think you'll find that certs are short-term instruments focused on individual products or specific technologies. They're job-oriented. Degrees are long-term instruments, broad based, and geared towards establishing foundations from which to build. They're career-oriented.
It's a big mistake to say that I've known x people who had degrees but couldn't do the job, and y people who had certs and could do the job it's an unfair comparison. It's comparing apples and oranges because you're comparing a short-term job-oriented instrument against a long-term career-oriented instrument.
Both certs and degrees are valid, but have different targets. Which is better for you depends solely on what you to do, and where you want to go.
That being said, generally speaking, these two basic rules of everyday life apply just as much to this discussion as they do to many other aspect of life.
1 - The value is proportional to the effort
2 - You get what you pay for
With respect to cert vs degree - do the math.
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I think you'll find that certs are short-term instruments focused on individual products or specific technologies. They're job-oriented. Degrees are long-term instruments, broad based, and geared towards establishing foundations from which to build. They're career-oriented.
It's a big mistake to say that I've known x people who had degrees but couldn't do the job, and y people who had certs and could do the job it's an unfair comparison. It's comparing apples and oranges because you're comparing a short-term job-oriented instrument against a long-term career-oriented instrument.
Both certs and degrees are valid, but have different targets. Which is better for you depends solely on what you to do, and where you want to go.
That being said, generally speaking, these two basic rules of everyday life apply just as much to this discussion as they do to many other aspect of life.
1 - The value is proportional to the effort
2 - You get what you pay for
With respect to cert vs degree - do the math.
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While I definitely agree that you get what you get is relative to what you pay for, I'm not so sure that I agree with the first point (if it is intended to say that a degree is more valuable than anything else). I still firmly believe that experience is far more valuable than a degree. Given a choice between a newbie fresh out of college and a person who's been working in the field for four years without a degree, the guy with experience is going to win out. You can learn a lot in school but the real world is the best teacher, especially in an industry that changes so rapidly.
One way to look at it: a degree is a foundation for gaining experience. If you can get your foot in the door without it then you don't really need it.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
One way to look at it: a degree is a foundation for gaining experience. If you can get your foot in the door without it then you don't really need it.
________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
CajunCenturion
Programmer
No, that's not the point at all. The point is that nothing comes for free. How much you put into something is directly proportional to how much you get out of it, and the same is true for education. Whether you apply yourself, or skate, through to a cert, or to a degree, or on the job experience, what you get out comes from what you put in. The bottom line is it's all about education. How much education did you get?
==> I still firmly believe that experience is far more valuable than a degree.
What is of value is education and the ability to apply what you learned yesterday into what you do today and tomorrow. So first question is what did you learn yesterday, or the day before, and the day before that. You always have to make an assumption of how did the student applied him or herself, and that's true on all front.
What you can be sure of is that a person with a four-year degree has a broad based education and has been exposed to a wide variety of topics and theory. This person has a well rounded foundation. The person with the cert has a good deal of knowledge about one specific thing. The person with experience is much tougher to know. Does this person with four years experience really have four years of experience, or is it one year of experience four time? Or is it one month of experience 48 times? That's a judgment call that the evaluator has to make.
I find that to be a broad based generalization which has very little practicality in the real world, especially without knowing the details of the experience or your requirements.
Yes, that's true, but again, it comes down to what were you exposed to while in school and what did you learn, and similarly, what did the real-world expose you to and what did you learn? And so too, you're far more likely to learn bad habits from the real-world.
Yes, a degree is a foundation for gaining experience, but it is a broad-based foundation and you don't get that broad-based foundation in the real world. And I totally disagree that you don't need it, because you can build from that foundation over and over again as new things come out. Product knowledge goes away, but the foundation is always there.
There will be a few who say yes, but the question I always like to ask in these kinds of discussions is how many people with a degree regret going to school?
I know lots of people will rationalize that I knew someone with a degree who happened to be a slacker. Of course you do, everyone knows slackers, both with and without degrees. But they don't reflect on the degree, they reflect on themselves. However, when you base any argument, regardless of what point you're trying to make, with a slacker involved, are you're really saying is that slackers can't be used to prove any rule, and that's good. Slackers are good for anything, except maybe to make the rest of us look good.
Those people who don't have degrees and say that it's all about experience are missing one critical fact in their argument. They don't have any experience with a degree from which to make that judgment. You don't know what a degree would or would not mean to you because you don't have one.
As I said in my previous post, which is better for you depends solely on what you to do, and where you want to go.
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ousoonerjoe
Programmer
In large corporate America (and some mid to small companies) this is not exactly true. Many CEO's, CFO's, Presidents, etc. have the belief that a college degree is a MUST regardless of experience. Some are willing to trade years of experience for a degree, but not all. HR is often given the order to hire degree personnel only. When this happens, it does not matter how good you are, how long you've been in the field, it matters only if you have a degree. The crazy part about that mentality is rarely do they care if it is in Computer Science or Basket Weaving. All they care about is that you went to college and got at the minimum a bachelors.kmcferrin said:
I have an Associates and 10 years in the field. I still run into this wall on occasions. Maybe it's a regional thing, but many places I have applied for that have that requirement are national/multi-national companies as well as a few local shops.
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First: I haven't been here in a while and I'm glad to see CajunCenturion still being a voice of reason.
Second, As someone who has a degree (BA English Lit/Philosophy), a couple of certs (some outdated PBX stuff, CCNA, ACA), over a decade of experience in my field and a recent job change under my belt I can't say I would trade any of it. Every part of my education and experience has contributed to my current position. Even 14 years later I speak to my degree when interviewing even though it has no direct 'job specific' relevance to what I do. Even now that some of my PBX certifications are for systems that no one is using I still talk about how I taught myself the systems from the ground up and then got the paper to 'validate' it. And, of course, even if I am interviewing for a job completely different than all others I have done I speak to my ability to navigate in the corporate world. At the end of the day employers certainly value good employees over anything else. The key to being a good employee, in my opinion, is the ability to use your knowledge to benefit business coupled with the desire to be of benefit. There are people with degrees who work that way, people with certs who work that way and people with neither who do the same.
Now, in looking at a piece of paper would I place weight on similar experience to mine in deciding who gets an interview? Of course I would but when I leave a company and write my job description/requirements I always say the same thing about degrees and certifications: preferred.
I do a lot of interviewing to keep sharp and my experience has been that HR does the initial screen but that it is based on criteria written by the hiring manager. My answer to the OP? Find out what the hiring manager has under his/her belt to find out how certs v. degrees v. experience will be weighed. I think this thread speaks pretty clearly to that as sound strategy.
Second, As someone who has a degree (BA English Lit/Philosophy), a couple of certs (some outdated PBX stuff, CCNA, ACA), over a decade of experience in my field and a recent job change under my belt I can't say I would trade any of it. Every part of my education and experience has contributed to my current position. Even 14 years later I speak to my degree when interviewing even though it has no direct 'job specific' relevance to what I do. Even now that some of my PBX certifications are for systems that no one is using I still talk about how I taught myself the systems from the ground up and then got the paper to 'validate' it. And, of course, even if I am interviewing for a job completely different than all others I have done I speak to my ability to navigate in the corporate world. At the end of the day employers certainly value good employees over anything else. The key to being a good employee, in my opinion, is the ability to use your knowledge to benefit business coupled with the desire to be of benefit. There are people with degrees who work that way, people with certs who work that way and people with neither who do the same.
Now, in looking at a piece of paper would I place weight on similar experience to mine in deciding who gets an interview? Of course I would but when I leave a company and write my job description/requirements I always say the same thing about degrees and certifications: preferred.
I do a lot of interviewing to keep sharp and my experience has been that HR does the initial screen but that it is based on criteria written by the hiring manager. My answer to the OP? Find out what the hiring manager has under his/her belt to find out how certs v. degrees v. experience will be weighed. I think this thread speaks pretty clearly to that as sound strategy.
CajunCenturion, have you looked at what colleges are teaching? Very outdated stuff. Same can be said about some certifications out there (I have the C|EH cert, and it really was a joke).
So, I'm going to assume that you would take the person straight out of college over the person who has worked in the work force? Does that include a person in the military who has hands on experience, and attended the school of "work your butt off and get this done"?
I do agree that you get out of it what you put into it. I also agree with a lot of the posters who explain that experience is essential.
So, I'm going to assume that you would take the person straight out of college over the person who has worked in the work force? Does that include a person in the military who has hands on experience, and attended the school of "work your butt off and get this done"?
I do agree that you get out of it what you put into it. I also agree with a lot of the posters who explain that experience is essential.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
==> CajunCenturion, have you looked at what colleges are teaching?
I'm familiar with what is being taught at the universities I attended, and with those in whom I have contact through friends and associates. I'm also somewhat aware based on university papers published in journals such as the ACM and IEEE. I'm somewhat aware of various computer science degree program rankings and I know that there are roughly 250 universities with accredited (ABET) computer science degrees. I do have confidence in ABET accreditation because I know what their accreditation requirements are, and I know that accreditation will be lost if the program does not meet and maintain certain standards. But as far as getting specific about the curriculum of a certain university or another, it would only be conjecture on my part. The first question I would ask is whether or not that degree program is accredited, and the date of their most recent accreditation.
Now you claimed in a broad statement that computer schools are teaching outdated stuff. To keep an open mind, I ask you what basis do you have for claiming that to be a fair and valid characterization of even just a simple majority of those 250 ABET accredited programs?
==> So, I'm going to assume that you would take the person straight out of college over the person who has worked in the work force?
That would be an invalid assumption on your part. As I have said at least twice in this thread, what is best for you depends on your situation, goals, and objectives. That applies to both sides of the fence. When I'm in hiring mode, what I look for in a candidate depends on the company's position as well as its short-term and long-term needs.
As a veteran, I appreciate the value of hands on experience and work your butt off and get it done. I'm also painfully aware of the cost of having to go back and do it again, which is also a trait of military training and experience.
==> I also agree with a lot of the posters who explain that experience is essential.
Essential? That's a classic Catch-22.
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I'm familiar with what is being taught at the universities I attended, and with those in whom I have contact through friends and associates. I'm also somewhat aware based on university papers published in journals such as the ACM and IEEE. I'm somewhat aware of various computer science degree program rankings and I know that there are roughly 250 universities with accredited (ABET) computer science degrees. I do have confidence in ABET accreditation because I know what their accreditation requirements are, and I know that accreditation will be lost if the program does not meet and maintain certain standards. But as far as getting specific about the curriculum of a certain university or another, it would only be conjecture on my part. The first question I would ask is whether or not that degree program is accredited, and the date of their most recent accreditation.
Now you claimed in a broad statement that computer schools are teaching outdated stuff. To keep an open mind, I ask you what basis do you have for claiming that to be a fair and valid characterization of even just a simple majority of those 250 ABET accredited programs?
==> So, I'm going to assume that you would take the person straight out of college over the person who has worked in the work force?
That would be an invalid assumption on your part. As I have said at least twice in this thread, what is best for you depends on your situation, goals, and objectives. That applies to both sides of the fence. When I'm in hiring mode, what I look for in a candidate depends on the company's position as well as its short-term and long-term needs.
As a veteran, I appreciate the value of hands on experience and work your butt off and get it done. I'm also painfully aware of the cost of having to go back and do it again, which is also a trait of military training and experience.
==> I also agree with a lot of the posters who explain that experience is essential.
Essential? That's a classic Catch-22.
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ousoonerjoe
Programmer
You have to have experience to get experience, but you can't get experience unless you have experience.
To put it lightly..... those days sucked.
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I'd have to add one small thing to this. CC - I get why you say I can't know how much I would have gained by having a degree.
But surely by the same aurgument you can't know what I gained from those 4 extra years of experience.
Most of the people who work for me have degrees. I don't mind either way. I'd prefer they had common sense, but that seems laking generally I suspect.
Fee
"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen
But surely by the same aurgument you can't know what I gained from those 4 extra years of experience.
Most of the people who work for me have degrees. I don't mind either way. I'd prefer they had common sense, but that seems laking generally I suspect.
Fee
"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen
CajunCenturion
Programmer
==> But surely by the same aurgument you can't know what I gained from those 4 extra years of experience.
No I can't, and nor do I pretend to. It's a judgment call that must be handled on a case by case basis. That's exactly why I don't make the claim that one is better than the other. They're simply different.
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No I can't, and nor do I pretend to. It's a judgment call that must be handled on a case by case basis. That's exactly why I don't make the claim that one is better than the other. They're simply different.
I've had people work for me that had degrees. Some had common sense and some didn't. I've had people work for me that did not have degrees. Some had common sense and some didn't. Common sense, or lack thereof, is independent of both education and experience.
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I think individual by individual is what it boils down to. Like I said before: what gets you to the interview is most often dependent upon the experience of the hiring manager but once you are there it is up to you.
Take me v. my sister. I had a boss who needed a phone tech and substituted a philosopher. Ten years later I'm running an IP system that spans the globe. My sister has a BA in Computer Science and I wouldn't trust her to set the time on my VCR (if I were still using one).
Take me v. my sister. I had a boss who needed a phone tech and substituted a philosopher. Ten years later I'm running an IP system that spans the globe. My sister has a BA in Computer Science and I wouldn't trust her to set the time on my VCR (if I were still using one).
CajunCenturion
Programmer
An accredited bachelors degree, regardless of subject matter, requires four years (+/- 120 credit hours) to attain. Someone who has such a bachelors has shown that they set out on a four year goal and they made it. Despite the hassles of certain professors and college administrators, despite the distractions of the real world, despite all the curves that real everyday throws at you over a four year period, they had the drive, motivation, and discipline to get the job done. The bottom line is they finished a four-year project that they started.
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A college degree is not something an employer looks at like a project and comes to a conclusion that a potential employee "started something and completed it." As I said earlier in this thread you can say that about fishing.
A college degree, among other things:
A college degree, among other things:
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