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metal stud annoyances 3

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davidson55

IS-IT--Management
Mar 16, 2005
9
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US
Hello,

I am planning an installation for a small, urban, multi-tenant luxury residential rental building that is currently undergoing a complete gut renovation, and I need some ideas for the routing of the horizontal cabling.

Unlike an office setting, there will be no drop ceilings or other possible overhead pathways, so everything needs to go in the metal-stud framing of the walls. One requirement, however, is that 10 years from now when these wires become obsolete, they can be replaced without destroying every wall in the apartment. In my experience, once the sheetrock goes on, there is little you can change. I suppose that might seem acceptable in dwellings of cheaper construction, but in apartments of mahogany moldings, marble bathrooms and inlaid floor patterns, the cost of preparing for the future is chump change in comparison to the cost of tearing things apart 10 years from now to accommodate some new wiring standard.

It seems that this problem could be easily solved with some sort of metal horizontal wiring channel, at faceplate-height, structurally integrated with the metal-stud framing. In this way, the faceplates themselves could double as access doors for pulling cable in the future. Even better would be such a product with a metal divider allowing for the placement of low and high voltage jacks in the same faceplate. I have not been able to source any such products, though, and surface raceway is understandably unacceptable to the developer.

I've looked at that “WireTracks” product that goes behind the baseboard, but I need far more capacity, and something far more solid than plastic to attach the baseboard to. (this is large, intricate mahogany baseboard that really cannot be moved once installed/varnished.

I've also considered the possibility of using electrical pipe conduit, but that would be sub-optimal, inflexible, and difficult to work with for a number of reasons.

Aesthetic requirements always seem to interfere with technological progress. I imagine this is a common problem, however, and I would appreciate any insight the people of this forum might have. I am not a professional in this area, but I keep getting asked to plan this kind of work, and I have been continually frustrated by the lack of future-proof wiring products. I guess it's a small percentage of dwellings in America that don't have basements, attics and wood framing. If I can't find a product that solves this problem, the contractor and I will improvise our own, probably by building cable duct with plywood and 1x2s.

Thanks! - Aaron
 
Use EMT conduit.

I would hope they are using EMT for the electric. Just have the electricians run another set using 3/4" as a minimum.
 
wires (TechnicalUser)
16 Mar 05 23:53
Use EMT conduit.

I would hope they are using EMT for the electric. Just have the electricians run another set using 3/4" as a minimum.
===============
From what I've seen that's quite uncommon for residential work here in Manhattan. They mostly use BX.

3/4" is far too small anyway. Each apartment is going to have around 12 faceplates, each with 4 pieces of cat6 and 1 RG6. Some faceplates will have speaker terminals. In the pathways that extends along the outside wall of each apartment, I will have as many as 24 pieces of cat6 and 4 coax in some places. We need a conduit that can not only accommodate such volume, but also have it lose enough that it can be safely/easily pulled.
 
What you need is more conduits if thos are your specs. Each faceplate should have a home run to a central point in the apartment. You should have a professional come in to at least design the system.
 
Greenfield is a flexible metal like what is around BX electrical wiring, available in different sizes. I've seen that run. Or I've even seen electricians run innerduct or something like it. These both need a central point of access.
 
Have you considered fiber for data?
And Why do you think that if you install cat6 it will be obsolete in 10yrs? if cat6 4pr supports 1000baset what more could you ask for.POTS will always run on twisted pair. just install enough cabling for expansion.
 
Greenfield looks like the best option at this point, but does anyone know of an open-duct system I can use? We're talking about a LOT of greenfield if I have to go that route. I'd rather just have a horizontal pathway at 18" that I can put mudrings over wherever I need a faceplate. If such an approach existed, this would strike me as a lot more flexible and cost-effective than needing to have separate runs of greenfield to the IDF for every faceplate.
 
I guess what I'm looking for is a *rigid* in-wall cable duct that works reasonably well with metal-stud framing.
 
To further clarify, I'm looking for a kind of metal raceway that would go *inside* the wall.
 
if you have metal studs inside the wall how are you going to have your large cable duct in there too? Are you planning to have the walls extra thick to accomodate the duct? I'm not too clear on what you plan.
 
i think you should invent it.....pull 4 cat 6 and 2 rg 6 and 4 strands of fiber seal the wall and you'll never have a problem...
 
franklin97355 (TechnicalUser)
17 Mar 05 16:13
if you have metal studs inside the wall how are you going to have your large cable duct in there too? Are you planning to have the walls extra thick to accomodate the duct? I'm not too clear on what you plan.
=================

As I suggested in my first post, such a system would be *structurally integrated* with the metal stud framing. Mosly likely this would be like building a lower wall (18" high) and an upper wall, with this metal channel in between.

Here is some rough ASCII art: ('H' represents vertical studs, '=' represents the top or bottom of said pathway, 'F' represents faceplates)

H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
=======================================================
F F F
=======================================================
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
H H H H H H H
 
And to further clarify, sheetrock would cover the whole thing, including the pathway. Mudrings would be used along the pathway where faceplates are needed. (Unless a less-crude, prefab solution exists, but my extensive googling indicates that it doesn't)
 
Davidson, no disrespect, but why are you involved in determining how these units will be wired? It doesn't seem like you have a clue.

As I understand it this building is in Manhattan and it doesn't sound like it is for low income housing. I'm positive that there is an architect, engineer, project manager, general contractor and an electrical contractor that is local 3 UNION- meaning that if they see you trying to run wire they will show you the bottom of an elevator shaft.

You are not inventing the wheel here, this has all been done before. This all should have been designed and spec'd by the engineer in the beginning so that the electrical contractor can install it. There are STANDARD ways to do what you want with conduit. It's their job, let them do it.

-Hal
 
Thanks Hal,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Engineer?! Architect?! Project Manager?! Electrical Contractor?! Union?!

Try a thrifty Irishman and a bunch of Ecuadorians. Believe it or not, the world isn't perfect, not everyone understands the concept of an "industry standard", and thankfully, not everyone has to deal with unions. At least the developer has a track record of making money and pleasing his tenants.

Unfortunately, in my job I am forced to wear a lot of hats, including those for which I have little prior experience. The owner prefers to do things by the seat of his pants than pay for things he feels we already knows how to do. He doesn't skimp on ornate woodworking and expensive fixtures, but he does on architects, engineers, and electricians. I get to oversee a moonlighting slob who will do things that even people who "don't have a clue" like myself find frightening.

I have to say, I don't entirelly disagree with my superior about some of the people you described. A lot that I have worked with have been useless, overpriced, and unable to think outside of the box at best. Unsupervised, those people produce exactly the kinds of problems I'm trying to mitigate here. It's really irritating when you end up paying someone who comes highly recommended who doesn't seem to know anything, and even worse, interferes with your objectives. That said, you can't imagine how much I would love to have someone else handle this. That's not going to happen. This is a world where some people have odd priorities that are beyond our control. NYC has a lot of bad contractors.

That said, greenfield or flexible plastic? I'm concerned about the burr of the metal imperriling the cable, but the advantages of shielding are quite desirable.

Remind me to someday work with people who don't mess around. Until then, the very reason I have come to this forum is to get a sense of what the STANDARD is, and so far, nobody has given me a definitive answer, though I have had a lot of helpful suggestions. Man.. I love being the company "computer guy." Firewalling, VLANs, VPNs, and VoIP I can tell you all about. Somehow this is often interpreted as "anything involving an electrical circuit."

Thanks. g'night
 
Davidson,
You mentioned that your supervisor doesn't skimp on ornate woodwork. Wiremold makes a product that is a wire channel (both power and communications) that has a wood laminate attached to the cover. The cover is availabe in various wood types, all of which will accept stain or paint. This is used in place of some baseboards and will provide you with the future capacity and accessiblity that you're looking for. They even make a crown molding with the same laminate that can hide wiring. Installed correctly, even a trained eye cannot tell the difference between this product and the solid woodwork.
My company has used this on several historic buildings in our area with great success.
One last thing, you might want to wear a harness/fall arrest gear during any installation that you're working on there. While I don't speak from experience, I have heard that union contractors there are very territorial. There may some truth to the previous comment about finding yourself at the bottom of an elevator shaft.
 
If I'm not mistaken but the the holes in the metal studs are covered by plastic rings (grommets) to protect the wiring during the pull and to avoid damaging the cable durings MACs.
 
yes akwong you are correct but this guy is looking for something way more intense than grommets in metal studs.
 
He can put oversized rivets in the holes or maybe use a piece of pvc !
 
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