Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations SkipVought on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Masters Degree? 2
- Thread starter itteck
- Start date
-
1
- #2
I don't know about the U.K., but there was a study published in several online news sites, is your degree worth a million bucks, I found the URL:
Gives potential return on investment for various fields and degree types (quite a good study, IMO).
Gives potential return on investment for various fields and degree types (quite a good study, IMO).
collierd,
At least until the dot-com era, many consulting and body-shop outfits got their business by pimping academic credentials. (This was especially true when dealing with the government.) Often, the PhD's were for show: they were generally useless on projects, which were completed by less-educated but better-qualified (and experienced and motivated) staff members.
At least until the dot-com era, many consulting and body-shop outfits got their business by pimping academic credentials. (This was especially true when dealing with the government.) Often, the PhD's were for show: they were generally useless on projects, which were completed by less-educated but better-qualified (and experienced and motivated) staff members.
lionelhill
Technical User
I'm inclined to think that in some IT fields it will be the non-computing qualifications that count. Lots of people have got IT qualifications, but if I have a specific problem, I want someone who understands my problem and can talk to me in a language I understand.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
lionelhill - I can understand your point, and I agree that in some applications of technology, subject expertise can be at least as important as expertise is the technology itself. That's one area where having the good academic background does make a difference.
You might want to consider setting up your own moderated Tek-Tips groups focused on the research areas in which you're involved.
I hope that among IT professionals, the notion that "having good academic backgrounds is nonsense", is not prevalent.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
You might want to consider setting up your own moderated Tek-Tips groups focused on the research areas in which you're involved.
I hope that among IT professionals, the notion that "having good academic backgrounds is nonsense", is not prevalent.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
donttreadonme
Instructor
I agree lionelhill.
If one has an accounting degree and IT experience they can become an IT auditor. Surely, they are better qualified than a CS degree for the position.
I have an education degree and have been in IT for 9 years. At one of my former employers, a distributor, one programmer had a zoology degree (and had been programming in RPG for over 20 years), and another programmer was an air force bomber mechanic. The bomber mechanic was the best programmer I had ever seen, he just understood the logic and could pick up a language.
If one has an accounting degree and IT experience they can become an IT auditor. Surely, they are better qualified than a CS degree for the position.
I have an education degree and have been in IT for 9 years. At one of my former employers, a distributor, one programmer had a zoology degree (and had been programming in RPG for over 20 years), and another programmer was an air force bomber mechanic. The bomber mechanic was the best programmer I had ever seen, he just understood the logic and could pick up a language.
-
1
- #8
That's funny, donttreadonme, my father-in-law, used to be a air force bomber mechanic and right after did programming in Cobol. It runs in the family now.
I have some experience and the degree. I am currently working on my Master's. The advantage I find is in learning more specifically how to professionally handle my job. Yes, I have the general know-how to handle a project, but my instructors teach me how to put together a professional presentation, handle my team members effectively, it also helps me to network, among other things. However if asked, I would suggest experience before Masters, first.
I have some experience and the degree. I am currently working on my Master's. The advantage I find is in learning more specifically how to professionally handle my job. Yes, I have the general know-how to handle a project, but my instructors teach me how to put together a professional presentation, handle my team members effectively, it also helps me to network, among other things. However if asked, I would suggest experience before Masters, first.
So the question becomes:
Which comes first--the business area experience or the IT knowledge?
I think to be a consultant (as opposed to a programmer working for an end-user company), you need the IT training/experience first, since typically you'll be going to different business types from project to project, and you learn what you need to know about that business at the project. Sure, if you happen to have previous education in that area you have a head start, but in general the consultant needs broad IT training first, and business-area experience second.
But for a programmer position in, say, the accounting firm, it might be beneficial to take an accountant, and then trian him in the programming language that firm uses for their systems.
And as for the bomber-mechanic, that makes sense--the mechanical aptitude found in mechanics is, in my opinion, similar to what's needed for today's higher-level languages. You're not doing the low-level stuff--none of the hex math you might've needed with assembler--you're putting components together, troubleshooting problems with different components of a program--not unlike diagnosing a knocking sound in an engine or a complaint of sluggish performance in cold weather, for instance.
And the core business rules of program for a particular business are usually not defined by the programmer, but by the accountant, the trader, the logistics manager--whatever expert in the particular field for which your program is written. Much the same way as an engineer designs the automobile's engine, but the mechanic put's it together and fixes it when it's broke.
--jsteph
Which comes first--the business area experience or the IT knowledge?
I think to be a consultant (as opposed to a programmer working for an end-user company), you need the IT training/experience first, since typically you'll be going to different business types from project to project, and you learn what you need to know about that business at the project. Sure, if you happen to have previous education in that area you have a head start, but in general the consultant needs broad IT training first, and business-area experience second.
But for a programmer position in, say, the accounting firm, it might be beneficial to take an accountant, and then trian him in the programming language that firm uses for their systems.
And as for the bomber-mechanic, that makes sense--the mechanical aptitude found in mechanics is, in my opinion, similar to what's needed for today's higher-level languages. You're not doing the low-level stuff--none of the hex math you might've needed with assembler--you're putting components together, troubleshooting problems with different components of a program--not unlike diagnosing a knocking sound in an engine or a complaint of sluggish performance in cold weather, for instance.
And the core business rules of program for a particular business are usually not defined by the programmer, but by the accountant, the trader, the logistics manager--whatever expert in the particular field for which your program is written. Much the same way as an engineer designs the automobile's engine, but the mechanic put's it together and fixes it when it's broke.
--jsteph
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think that's an interesting viewpoint jsteph, but I think it's much easier, and less costly, to take the well trained programmer and teach him/her the business rules that need to automated, rather than the reverse. Further, in the long run, you'll get much better systems because it's the well trained programmer who knows how to best utilize, both effectively and efficiently, the tools (ie the computer) to get the job done.
I think it's far better for each of us to do that which we do best. Let the accountants to the accounting, and let the programmers do the programming. The whole then becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I think it's far better for each of us to do that which we do best. Let the accountants to the accounting, and let the programmers do the programming. The whole then becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I think it's far better for each of us to do that which we do best. Let the accountants to the accounting, and let the programmers do the programming. The whole then becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
It's often useful to put a generalist (analyst) in between the two parties to act as an interpreter. Both parties are likely to use specialised vocabulary and it's not unusual for the same term to be used, but with very different meanings for each.
It's often useful to put a generalist (analyst) in between the two parties to act as an interpreter. Both parties are likely to use specialised vocabulary and it's not unusual for the same term to be used, but with very different meanings for each.
Yes, I agree. On a project at my former company, we conracted with Oracle to create a job cost based accounting system. Unfortunately the programmers and accountants were constantlygetting confused because when the programmers referred to a job, it was work, when the accountants referred to a job, it was a job # you charge expenses and labor to. LOL.
I think in any area, it's always advantageous to get the experience first before the Masters. I really don't think I would gain as much in my Masters program if I didn't have real world experience.
I think in any area, it's always advantageous to get the experience first before the Masters. I really don't think I would gain as much in my Masters program if I didn't have real world experience.
onebigscot
MIS
I work in an accounting department and am getting a bachelors in systems analysis. From my experience with my agency, there needs to be someone with an education involved on a project. There needs to be one team member who can understand the implications of what the program does and how it affects business operations.
Granted, my experience is limited. We have had only two major IT projects in the last three years. But there have been a handful of programmers come and go because they could not understand what it was the agency needed. Both projects have taken longer to roll out than expected. One has not yet lived up to expectations and is still not fully realized. The other is (hopefully) in its final testing stage - six months overdue.
Finally, the big bosses are starting to see the need for an analyst. My experience includes analyzing how various programs affect the business financially. Using my experience and education, I am trying to create a position that has never been utilized before. Hopefully I will be able to help move both projects along.
If this proves out, I will go after my Masters in a year or two...
Granted, my experience is limited. We have had only two major IT projects in the last three years. But there have been a handful of programmers come and go because they could not understand what it was the agency needed. Both projects have taken longer to roll out than expected. One has not yet lived up to expectations and is still not fully realized. The other is (hopefully) in its final testing stage - six months overdue.
Finally, the big bosses are starting to see the need for an analyst. My experience includes analyzing how various programs affect the business financially. Using my experience and education, I am trying to create a position that has never been utilized before. Hopefully I will be able to help move both projects along.
If this proves out, I will go after my Masters in a year or two...
CajunCenturion
Programmer
"From my experience with my agency, there needs to be someone with an education involved on a project."
From my experience with all my clients/customers/employers over many years, there needs to be someone with an education involved in every project, especially today, where the IT field is flooded with so many who know so little, and serve so few.
(My apologies to the RAF, and Mr. Churchill).
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
From my experience with all my clients/customers/employers over many years, there needs to be someone with an education involved in every project, especially today, where the IT field is flooded with so many who know so little, and serve so few.
(My apologies to the RAF, and Mr. Churchill).
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I am enrolled at the University of Missouri-Rolla in a new degree plan called BS in Information Science and Technology that is a hybrid of computer science and a business degree. In fact the required courses create a minor in business automaticly. This degree is envisioned as a middle management layer between the "Geek Programers" and the "Business End". The total idea is to be a translator between the two very different worlds of language and a lubricant for explaining the limitations of both worlds in order to increase efficiancy.
MasterRacker
New member
Ryder, that sounds like it could be a good program if implemented correctly. I hope it's not too late. The way things are going, it could be prep to be the project manager between the executives and the overseas coders...
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
bluedragon2
IS-IT--Management
hmm, reading all of the posts in this thread makes me wonder if I am a special case, or if the "working world" is different then I perceive. I have been in the IT business for 14 years and I do not even have a bachelor’s degree. I have been constantly employed for those 14 years over three companies. I am making a great living and very happy. If I were to go for a degree (which will not happen anytime soon since I am a single pop now), it would not do me any good other then saying I have it. I am making more money in my current position then those who have a degree up to and including a masters that have less experience then I do.
Now, about six years ago, I was in control of whom the company that I worked for at the time hired for various projects. I interviewed many applicants, and must say that I hired about 70 percent that did have a degree. Reflecting back, I guess that the majority reason for that was they best suited the positions at the time, but I cannot say that it influenced my decision either way. I do believe that it was more the “interview” and what I thought of them personally. I know this is more likely an extreme and “isolated” instance of the process. I hope that is not the case since I may be out looking again. There is the adage that a person with a degree has the fortitude and self-discipline to achieve that goal, but as in life, that is not always the case. There may be many reasons why one does not achieve that status, but I still believe that a person can tell a lot by talking to someone. And, in most cases, I know a person without a degree will not even get into that door, but if I am still around hiring someone, I will not make that my priority.
[Blue]Blue[/Blue] [Dragon]
If I wasn't Blue, I would just be a Dragon...
Now, about six years ago, I was in control of whom the company that I worked for at the time hired for various projects. I interviewed many applicants, and must say that I hired about 70 percent that did have a degree. Reflecting back, I guess that the majority reason for that was they best suited the positions at the time, but I cannot say that it influenced my decision either way. I do believe that it was more the “interview” and what I thought of them personally. I know this is more likely an extreme and “isolated” instance of the process. I hope that is not the case since I may be out looking again. There is the adage that a person with a degree has the fortitude and self-discipline to achieve that goal, but as in life, that is not always the case. There may be many reasons why one does not achieve that status, but I still believe that a person can tell a lot by talking to someone. And, in most cases, I know a person without a degree will not even get into that door, but if I am still around hiring someone, I will not make that my priority.
[Blue]Blue[/Blue] [Dragon]
If I wasn't Blue, I would just be a Dragon...
In the UK I've never seen anyone the slightest interested in an MSc. They generally ask for nothing but when the do want something it is an MBA or a First from a top brand university plus straight As at A level.
Generally in IT, by the time you've decided what you need it is too late. You won't get a job unless you've been doing it for the past 10 years already. (And doing from 11 years ago to one year ago doesn't count either). The UK is like Russion Roulette - you might win a few times but eventually you're dead.
Generally in IT, by the time you've decided what you need it is too late. You won't get a job unless you've been doing it for the past 10 years already. (And doing from 11 years ago to one year ago doesn't count either). The UK is like Russion Roulette - you might win a few times but eventually you're dead.
Hey, this should work as several Fortune 500 companies approached UMR about setting up this program two years ago.
The implimentation has been somewhat irregular as any new program normally is. Most of the courses and instructers have been very good, and I have been trying to fill my general credits with Computer Science courses to increase my depth in that side just in case I have to freelance as self employed.
Yes things have changed. I was doing Web Design and Desktop Publishing as a freelancer from Jan. 1998 until Aug. 2001 and I noticed more and more requests for my resume with degrees listed. I wasn't getting as much work as in the beginning, so I went back to school.
The implimentation has been somewhat irregular as any new program normally is. Most of the courses and instructers have been very good, and I have been trying to fill my general credits with Computer Science courses to increase my depth in that side just in case I have to freelance as self employed.
Yes things have changed. I was doing Web Design and Desktop Publishing as a freelancer from Jan. 1998 until Aug. 2001 and I noticed more and more requests for my resume with degrees listed. I wasn't getting as much work as in the beginning, so I went back to school.
The importance of a college degree is downplayed more from individuals who don't possess one than from those who did attain the honoraries.
As in every case, there are exceptions, such as Dave Thomas, the high school dropout who started Wendy's; but by and large, they are exceptions, and the amount of money earned in a lifetime is substantially less according to the number of years of education.
As in every case, there are exceptions, such as Dave Thomas, the high school dropout who started Wendy's; but by and large, they are exceptions, and the amount of money earned in a lifetime is substantially less according to the number of years of education.
- Status
