Looking for a new phone system.

[Albion]

My company is in the market for a new phone system. They are currently looking at Analog solutions, but I thought maybe a VOIP solution might be a better choice. Can someone point me to place that would explain in detail what hardware and software would be needed to do an entire phone system in VOIP?

Thanks much.

-Al

 

[Albion]

We have about 25 phones in the office. I have no problems with networking at all, that's what I do here. But I would rather keep the maintenance down because I am the only networking person here. Maybe a VOIP solution isn't the best idea.

BTW, what does TDM stand for?

Thanks

-Al

 

[computerhighguy]

Personally my CCM landscape is less maintenance than the old system. I save time and money on phone moves since every room has designated POE ports. Users can move phones as they see fit without contacting me. You typically cannot do that with a TDM (Time Division Multiplexing). Your call. But IP is he future. You may want to embrace it now. For only 25 phones, it would be easy to do and probably cheaper than Nortel.


It is what it is!!
__________________________________
A+, Net+, I-Net+, Certified Web Master, MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and few others (I got bored one day)

 

[Albion]

Can you point me to some vendors who deal with VOIP and/or TDM?

Thanks

-Al

 

[BuckWeet]

I don't disagree with you, data is data.. But when it comes to the applications that are served by the pbx, thats where the voice people have the edge, data people don't have the experience in this world.. Put voice people in the data world, and they would have the same issues... Its when that data becomes something else is when there are problems.



BuckWeet

 

[computerhighguy]

Dimension Data is one of the largest Cisco Voice people around. It will cost a little more, but they have the most CCIEs next to Cisco.

Buckweet,
I am a data guy. I learned Cisco switching for LANs and Cisco routing for WANs. Voice to me is still data. It has different requirements than your typical mail or file server, but its still just data. I don't view it any differently. And I think that is why am able be successful. I find VoIP to be utterly simple. In fact, I would bet that Albion could do most of the work himself if had someone to bounce a few questions off of. I have, as I am sure you have, had to learn the hardway. But the documentation from Cisco is so good and they have so many resources on ther website (sometimes too many), that you can figure this out on your own, IMHO. Anyway, I wish Albion goodluck. If he goes with the company above, I am certain it will be successful. I am sure there are also others in his area that could do the job.


It is what it is!!
__________________________________
A+, Net+, I-Net+, Certified Web Master, MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and few others (I got bored one day)

 

[BuckWeet]

Here's my point...

Yes simple telephony can be easily done by anyone who reads the documents.. Advanced telephony is more than just data.. I'm speaking from an overall system point of view, not a network perspective (because yes at that level, its just a data packet).

Do you know how to design call centers, using IVRs that integrate with databases? What about call flow of those calls depending on its profile. What about multi site routing based on ANI, or using technologies like that within the telco cloud.. What about skills based call routing, time of day routing, etc.. list goes on and on.. Its much more in depth than reading a CallManager document alone.

If you do know those things, thats awesome, but I guarantee you, you're one of the only ones in your organization that knows all those items. And the things you know are from experience, not by reading Cisco documents.

I don't care about CCIEs, CCIE Voice doesn't expose you to those things mentioned above.

Why do you think Cisco is not breaking into these realms very fast, yes they have the IPCC (Geotel), but they don't have the backround..


I'm not here to say IP telephony is bad, I'm here to say its more than just data, its an application.. Why do you think Cisco makes it so hard to become a Voice Partner? Because they know 'data only' shops don't have the voice experience that is needed.. They've been burned by those data shops in botched installs.


BuckWeet

 

[Albion]

BuckWeet

Skills are skills are skills. I know a ton of Data People who couldn't find their way out of a paperbag as far as Exchange server is conserned but they're the best Server OS people I know. Learning the TelCO stuff can't be any harder then learning a Server Solution, a Programming Language, or a network topology. It's all logical in the end.

-Al

 

[BuckWeet]

Never said it wasn't possible, but find those skills reading a document on cisco's website or in a cisco press book..


BuckWeet

 

[ccmuser]

ALbion.. where are you located? East coast or San Francisco area? I know some good vendors in both of those areas with a great deal of exper.


Buckwheat.. every technology you mentioned above is covered on the CCIE voice exam.(barring database access for your IVR)..But if you purchase a TDM solution do you get a programmer for free? If you buy a TDM solution are you instantly trained in IVR call flow somehow? How are any of the things you mentioned above only applicable to TDM. Again you are blaming poorly trained staff on the solution you Choose.. A sound call routing plan and IVR call flow ect are needed regardless of the solution you choose.

 

[BuckWeet]

Did I say they were applicable to TDM, no I did not, I was saying its not just DATA.. Because if you want to come down to it, TDM is still data..

Everyone says IP Telephony/VoIP is just data, its not, its an application.. NO matter if its TDM, VoIP, wireless, etc.. Its an application. Its not just something you can read a document and do to an advanced enterprise level.

And if you were a customer who has a lot of money on the line relying a call center to make them money, are you going to rely on someone who read a document or just has a tiny bit of experience. I don't think so..

You're totally missing the point.. Just because I know how to use a hammer, can I build a skyscraper? NO.. I know how to change the brakes on my car, can I design a car? NO..

Whats being said here, is since its a data packet, any data person can pick it up by reading a basic manual and be totally proficient in telephony. Which is NOT TRUE..

Once it hits the telephony endpoint, its not a VoIP packet anymore. Once it hits an ISDN PRI/BRI, T1 CAS, FXO, DID Trunk, etc.. its not a voip data packet anymore.

As for those topics being covered by CCIE Voice, its not, those are Call Center features, which are in the IPCC, and from the CCIE Voice exam documentation, it mentions nothing about IPCC.. And even if you don't classify them as Call Center features, can the CallManager do them? NO..

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/learning/le3/ccie/voice/wr_exam_blueprint.html

CCIE Voice is great, it has the major foundations, but then there are other training methods they have for the additional applications that work with Callmanager.. CCIE Voice is not the end all be all for Cisco Voice products.

Once again I come back to this statement, if its just DATA, then why doesn't Cisco let "data only" vendors be a telephony partner.. Ask Cisco that and they'll tell you the same exact thing.

BuckWeet

 

[ccmuser]

Buckwheat you are funny at least!!!
You looked at and quoted the wrong document..
that is the written exam topic sheet..
Try the right link..maybe the one for the LAB!!!!!
As you will see CRS and IPCC are both valid apps for the lab exam and I ensure you they are there!!!!

basically VOIP is not much different then choosing frame relay over ATM or TLS or sonet for you L2 choices. All you are doing is transmitting voice over a diff L2 media(ethernet).. we have IP instead of any of the varios Channeling and voice signalling options....

Nothing ELSE really CHANGES!!!!!
get a grip...........

 

[ccmuser]

oh.. and before you go to crazy..
that was an abstaction.....

and when you purchase your PBX..Do they give your staff FREE training on IVR programming? Do you get a Free database class and learn how to access corp data from an IVR scripting lang. Do they fly you to the corp office to give you a free seminar in call routing? NO.......

These are basically the things you are using as a reason to not get VOIP.. but TDM solutions have the same Problems..you need an educated staff, trained in call routing and call flow trending an analysis. If you are developing your own IVR you are hiring a team of programmers if you are going to me aggressive about it.
These are all the same regardless of how you TRANSPORT your voice..

 

[BuckWeet]

Okay, so I made a mistake on the CCIE, I'll admit that... from the lab to the written.

But one thing, they cover IPCC Express, not IPCC Enterprise, and there is a difference.. But anyways.

Now to correct you.. Did I say that VoIP can't do these features? NOOOOO.. Because AVAYA Communication Manager (formerly Definity) sure can, heck it can do it in both worlds, IP and TDM.. And CallManager with the right addons can. As well as Nortel, Mitel, NEC, etc...

If you read, I'm comparing the application of Voice to Data, not VoIP to TDM.

To end this, IP Telephony has its place, and is really great, especially for the company I currently work for.. We're rolling out clusters of callmanager servers all over the world, supporting over 2000+ branch offices within the firm as well as corporate sites. We are one of the top 5 AVAYA installations in the world, and soon to probably be the one of the largest CallManager installation in the world.

To provide all of these branch offices with a traditional TDM solution, with all internetworking that we need would be cumbersome, expensive, and virtually impossible. With each branch site having 2 T1's to a regional touch point where the callmanager clusters live makes total sense, to be able to share that centralized PSTN trunking. To do this with a TDM solution would require us to either get more T1's or to break out channels on each T1 to the RTP's. Equaling more money or less bandwidth.

Doing this gives us the redundancy, reduced operating costs, reduced administration costs, cheaper reoccuring maintenance costs, etc.. the list goes on.

So yes it has its place, reitterating that I never said it didn't.

Cisco even brought in a Voice partner to support us, if voice is just data, then why didn't they just bring in a data partner? Also, if Voice is just data, then why is there even a CCIE Voice cert, or other voice certs.

I rest my case.

Thanks for the interesting conversation.


BuckWeet

 

[ccmuser]

In that whole post you are still blaming "cisco" for lack of a trained staff. Of course if you are designing an IVR cisco is going to bring in someone capable of building and scoping your IVR system. If you choose to call him a "voice partner" rather that just what he is...A highly skilled programmer that can implement a call center solution with Time and support on almost any IVR system you give him.

Of Course you want these people on your "team". regardless of what PBX solution you install.

And I must of missed it somewhere in my pricing sheet.. Ivr functions are free in avaya products? No.. these products need addons too.. Why do you phrase it like only Cisco needs the addons.. You twist everything up to try to prove your point!!!

 

[computerhighguy]

CCMUSER,
I think it is time to stop now. You have made your point. Buckweet is a great member of this forum and I would hate for him to stop, because you are antagonizing him. Cisco has a great product. We can all agree on that. Avaya has a more feature product. We can all agree on that. Cisco will one day kick avaya's butt, we can all debate that even though it will happen. Lets leave it where it is and chalk this up to a healthy debate.


It is what it is!!
__________________________________
A+, Net+, I-Net+, Certified Web Master, MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and few others (I got bored one day)

 

[BuckWeet]

I agree, its time to end it, its been fun and interesting.

I've worked in the convergence realm for years, in environments from 10 stations to 150,000 stations..
I base my opinions on experience in these environments. I've seen where each system can and can't work in those environments.

I'm not up cisco's rear end, nor am I up AVAYAs rear end, or anyone elses for that matter. I've been heavily involved in both products, I know what they can/can't do.

From that experience that I've obtained, I sit here and say, 'voip/ip telephony' is just not a data packet. Thats all I'm pointing out.


BuckWeet

 

[ccmuser]

But I am not trying to antagonize him. You can not make statement like" I don't like CCM because it will not do this unless you purchase addons"


When the product you are supporting requires the same addons and sometimes upgrades!!! I am not advocating one product over any other here(well kinda).. But bottom line I am also a Nortel SHOP. So I have nothing against TDM solutions and yes I so even do still recomend them sometimes. I am just not going to be a passive member of this forum when someone will make comments that are misleading. I also agree I have seen some great helpful post from buckwheat this one is just offbase.

Every reason he has posted to not go with VOIP is also inherent in TDM.. pretty much what he is saying is Don't bother buidling a callcenter it is much to complicated with CCM.. How does chooseing a different PBX(bottom line whatever Ip solution you choose it is still basically a PBX) change any of that. I honestly do not understand.. and pretty much he just keeps rehashing the same rant..

 

[BuckWeet]

This isn't worth responding anymore, I think you need to re-read and understand what I'm saying.. No where did I say I hated CallManager, no where did I say that it can't do these functions. The only CallManager comment I said, is that it needs external applications to do Call Center functions, nothing more.

READ


BuckWeet

 

[ccmuser]

what PBX gives advanced call center functions without adding hardware or licensing? Thats pretty much what I don't understand....

I never said I don't agree with alot of what you are saying you are just bringing up points as being negative to an IP system when they are present regardless of the solution you choose. I would like to have this conversation based of FACTS.

 

[ccmuser]

oops hit post to before I meant to.....

Anyway I think you get what I am saying. (well maybe not but I guess that will have to do..)