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Looking at upgrading to CISCO...thoughts?
- Thread starter mgelfand
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jneiberger
Technical User
How large is large? The reseller we work with just installed an 8000+ seat call center using Cisco gear.
- Thread starter
- #3
jneiberger
Technical User
Which Mitel gear do you have now? Why do you want to move away from Mitel?
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- #5
Hi!
We have an SX2000 and it's been going down (hard down) and having all kinds of trouble. It just can't handle the 7,000-10,000 calls a day that we get. We have grown A LOT over the past year. Plus, we currently have 23 PRIs (529 trunks) and we are being told the current system just can't handle that many simultaneous calls.
So, I'm trying to get feedback from my Tek-Tips friends to see what other folks use and get some advice.
We have an SX2000 and it's been going down (hard down) and having all kinds of trouble. It just can't handle the 7,000-10,000 calls a day that we get. We have grown A LOT over the past year. Plus, we currently have 23 PRIs (529 trunks) and we are being told the current system just can't handle that many simultaneous calls.
So, I'm trying to get feedback from my Tek-Tips friends to see what other folks use and get some advice.
jneiberger
Technical User
Have you looked at the Mitel 3300 series? I don't recall their performance figures in comparison to the SX2000, though. I suppose they might be roughly comparable, perhaps a little better.
I've heard good things about Mitel call center stuff. We looked at Mitel when we were researching VoIP solutions for our company. We ended up going with Cisco but we won't be upgrading our small call center for a couple of years.
Cisco has good call center products, as does Avaya. I think the important thing for you to do is make a list of your requirements and then make a wish list. Then take a look at whichever vendor meets all of your requirements and has the most items from your wish list.
It's probably more important to pick a good reseller/integrator to do the work. Even a great system can be a total piece of junk if installed improperly.
I've heard good things about Mitel call center stuff. We looked at Mitel when we were researching VoIP solutions for our company. We ended up going with Cisco but we won't be upgrading our small call center for a couple of years.
Cisco has good call center products, as does Avaya. I think the important thing for you to do is make a list of your requirements and then make a wish list. Then take a look at whichever vendor meets all of your requirements and has the most items from your wish list.
It's probably more important to pick a good reseller/integrator to do the work. Even a great system can be a total piece of junk if installed improperly.
- Thread starter
- #7
jneiberger
Technical User
We're a Nortel shop at the moment. We've just begun the slow migration to Cisco.
I'm curious, other than capacity issues, what don't you like about Mitel?
I'm curious, other than capacity issues, what don't you like about Mitel?
- Thread starter
- #9
jneiberger
Technical User
Nortel has a number of problems, in my opinion, not the least of which is that they suck as a company. They suck so much they should rename the company to "Hoover". 
They have too much of the old telco mentality: "This is the way we do things, and that's that. If you don't like it, tough."
They just can't compete when it comes to supporting their customers. I'm not sure Nortel even understands what customers actually want.
We've had a rocky relationship with them for a few years and it completely went into the tank after they lost our VoIP RFP to Cisco. Just this week, Nortel completely cut us off from local support. We are not allowed to directly contact the local Nortel office of any assistance, and they will not do anything for us beyond what is called for in our service contracts. All of this because they lost an RFP. But we're still customers! We still buy Nortel stuff, at least for the time being. We've bought three Option 11Cs this year, plus lots of phones. And we still have service contracts for Meridian Mail, our 81C, and Symposium. You'd think they'd treat current customers better.
On the technological side, they can't decide what direction they want to go in, at least with regard to VoIP. They've changed directions so many times in the last four years that it's difficult to be certain that they're going to stick to their current roadmap.
Besides, their VoIP stuff is too closely tied to their TDM stuff and much of the configuration is the same. Have you ever tried to configure a Nortel PBX? It's a nightmare...total alphabet soup. We wanted something a little more modern and we liked the fact that Cisco was able to design a new system (or buy a system <g>) that wasn't tied to old TDM technology. Cisco has no old TDM-only customers that they need to support like Nortel, Avaya, and Mitel do. They had the opportunity to design a completely new system with a new mindset, and we like what they've done with it.
Nortel really sucked in the area of disaster recovery. If you need true multisite reduncancy, it's going to be VERY expensive and complicated. With Cisco, it's a piece of cake. You just geographically disperse your servers and make sure they can talk to each other over high speed links.
Cisco can be kind of pricey. Their phones are way overpriced. Even the refurbished ones are expensive but they're about $100 to $150 cheaper than new phones after you include licensing costs.
All in all, the Cisco solution was a better fit for us, but they're also a better company to do business with. We always asked ourselves who we wanted to be "stuck" with for the next 10 or 15 years. If you phrase the question that way, Nortel definitely isn't going to be a good answer. I'm not even convinced they're going to be relevant in another 10 years.
They have too much of the old telco mentality: "This is the way we do things, and that's that. If you don't like it, tough."They just can't compete when it comes to supporting their customers. I'm not sure Nortel even understands what customers actually want.
We've had a rocky relationship with them for a few years and it completely went into the tank after they lost our VoIP RFP to Cisco. Just this week, Nortel completely cut us off from local support. We are not allowed to directly contact the local Nortel office of any assistance, and they will not do anything for us beyond what is called for in our service contracts. All of this because they lost an RFP. But we're still customers! We still buy Nortel stuff, at least for the time being. We've bought three Option 11Cs this year, plus lots of phones. And we still have service contracts for Meridian Mail, our 81C, and Symposium. You'd think they'd treat current customers better.
On the technological side, they can't decide what direction they want to go in, at least with regard to VoIP. They've changed directions so many times in the last four years that it's difficult to be certain that they're going to stick to their current roadmap.
Besides, their VoIP stuff is too closely tied to their TDM stuff and much of the configuration is the same. Have you ever tried to configure a Nortel PBX? It's a nightmare...total alphabet soup. We wanted something a little more modern and we liked the fact that Cisco was able to design a new system (or buy a system <g>) that wasn't tied to old TDM technology. Cisco has no old TDM-only customers that they need to support like Nortel, Avaya, and Mitel do. They had the opportunity to design a completely new system with a new mindset, and we like what they've done with it.
Nortel really sucked in the area of disaster recovery. If you need true multisite reduncancy, it's going to be VERY expensive and complicated. With Cisco, it's a piece of cake. You just geographically disperse your servers and make sure they can talk to each other over high speed links.
Cisco can be kind of pricey. Their phones are way overpriced. Even the refurbished ones are expensive but they're about $100 to $150 cheaper than new phones after you include licensing costs.
All in all, the Cisco solution was a better fit for us, but they're also a better company to do business with. We always asked ourselves who we wanted to be "stuck" with for the next 10 or 15 years. If you phrase the question that way, Nortel definitely isn't going to be a good answer. I'm not even convinced they're going to be relevant in another 10 years.
- Thread starter
- #11
Hi!
I'm a 13 year Avaya guru....been working on them since 1993. I worked on Nortel a long time ago when I worked for a small reseller in Kansas City. Mostly I work for large corporations that have Avaya gear. I love the Avaya stuff. I'm trying to convince my current company to go Avaya, but they want to do their due dilligence and check all three major vendors, Avaya, Cisco, and Nortel. To me life would be much easier if we had the Avaya S8300, S8500, or S8700/8720. Programming is such a breeze!
Have you ever worked with Avaya gear? That's why I'm nervous about Cisco. I've never worked on them.
Our Mitel just died two weeks ago and it took 4 hours to bring the system back up. A few days after that we had RAD (these digital recording boxes) problems. A week after that our voicemail crashed and we had to get a new one.
Prior to all of that, I was doing a 60 person move and the Mitel vendor gave me attitude, refused to finish the job, and left....job not completed mind you.
So, unfortunately, I have mixed thoughts when it comes to Mitel. I think for small companies with a small budget, it's a good system. If you have a call center, it's not a good product.
So you have an 8,000 seat call center? Now, is that mixed Nortel and Cisco? Or all Cisco? Are you spread out in several states or all in one building?
I'm a 13 year Avaya guru....been working on them since 1993. I worked on Nortel a long time ago when I worked for a small reseller in Kansas City. Mostly I work for large corporations that have Avaya gear. I love the Avaya stuff. I'm trying to convince my current company to go Avaya, but they want to do their due dilligence and check all three major vendors, Avaya, Cisco, and Nortel. To me life would be much easier if we had the Avaya S8300, S8500, or S8700/8720. Programming is such a breeze!
Have you ever worked with Avaya gear? That's why I'm nervous about Cisco. I've never worked on them.
Our Mitel just died two weeks ago and it took 4 hours to bring the system back up. A few days after that we had RAD (these digital recording boxes) problems. A week after that our voicemail crashed and we had to get a new one.
Prior to all of that, I was doing a 60 person move and the Mitel vendor gave me attitude, refused to finish the job, and left....job not completed mind you.
So, unfortunately, I have mixed thoughts when it comes to Mitel. I think for small companies with a small budget, it's a good system. If you have a call center, it's not a good product.
So you have an 8,000 seat call center? Now, is that mixed Nortel and Cisco? Or all Cisco? Are you spread out in several states or all in one building?
jneiberger
Technical User
No, we do not have a call center anywhere near that size. The reseller we work with recently did one that size, though. As I recall, this system was spread out over three different countries.
- Thread starter
- #13
jneiberger
Technical User
Our call center is using Nortel Symposium at the moment. We're planning on migrating that to Cisco IPCC Express in a couple of years. That will be the most difficult part of our migration so we're saving it for last.
We have about 2000 employees but the call center is only about 120 people.
We have about 2000 employees but the call center is only about 120 people.
- Thread starter
- #15
jneiberger
Technical User
I have no idea. I'd have to ask the person who works with Symposium. I used to know how many calls we took per year but the figure is completely slipping my mind at the moment.
We run both Avaya and Cisco call centers. Cisco does not have the best product but their marketing is one the best, their support is usually better than other vendors, and cisco website has tons of resources. Cisco's initial offering is much lower than Avaya's, but be ware. Cisco's cost easily doubles on consultants doing upgrades, maintenance, scripting until internal staff learns the product. And Cisco IPCC is very complex system. I think even the latest ICM 7.0 is not a mature product. It needs a lot of babysitting. And too much reliance on Windows platform is not helping either. It would be nice to see an appliance model like CCM 5.0. Hopefully soon.
- Thread starter
- #18
SparkyDTMF
MIS
Interesting posts, thanks all. My company just decided to sever the Avaya umbilical and we've plunged over to the dark side - to a Cisco Call Manager solution. Our reasons for doing so were (not in any order):
a) vision of Cisco vs. Avaya - we're betting on a Cisco/Microsoft VoIP war that will sweep the Nortels, Avayas, etc aside.
b) Avaya's recent pricing and business practices have soured our feelings about Avaya as a company. Their decision to change their pricing structures from those in Communications Manager 3.0 to a different pricing model for CM 3.1 would have added an addtional $100k to an upgrade quote, yet the hardware was almost identical.
To add insult to injury, Avaya, despite moving towards the business partner model years ago, was pimping the largest partner in our region. This partner has a reputation of being, shall we say, rather extroverted with their opinions and business practices. When we asked for other partners, our Avaya sales exec gave us a blank stare and questioned why we would even want to consider other partners...
c) our data infrastructure is getting long in the tooth - the proposal Cisco put forth to us also included some PoE switching gear that would allow us to replace some legacy stuff.
d) gigabit to the desktop through IP phones: Cisco can; Avaya can't. We're a engineering/manufacturing shop that does an awful lot of 3D drawings that are pretty heavy.
We're planning to install CCM 5.0. I've been programming Avaya stuff for over 7 years - I can't wait to get my hands around the Cisco stuff.
a) vision of Cisco vs. Avaya - we're betting on a Cisco/Microsoft VoIP war that will sweep the Nortels, Avayas, etc aside.
b) Avaya's recent pricing and business practices have soured our feelings about Avaya as a company. Their decision to change their pricing structures from those in Communications Manager 3.0 to a different pricing model for CM 3.1 would have added an addtional $100k to an upgrade quote, yet the hardware was almost identical.
To add insult to injury, Avaya, despite moving towards the business partner model years ago, was pimping the largest partner in our region. This partner has a reputation of being, shall we say, rather extroverted with their opinions and business practices. When we asked for other partners, our Avaya sales exec gave us a blank stare and questioned why we would even want to consider other partners...
c) our data infrastructure is getting long in the tooth - the proposal Cisco put forth to us also included some PoE switching gear that would allow us to replace some legacy stuff.
d) gigabit to the desktop through IP phones: Cisco can; Avaya can't. We're a engineering/manufacturing shop that does an awful lot of 3D drawings that are pretty heavy.
We're planning to install CCM 5.0. I've been programming Avaya stuff for over 7 years - I can't wait to get my hands around the Cisco stuff.
jneiberger
Technical User
I think Cisco is a great option, but are you really sure you want to be running 5.0 already? I don't know if I'd recommend 4.2 or 5.0 just yet. They've only been out for a couple of months and are bound to have lots of bugs in them. The latest stable release is 4.1(3)SR3a. That would work great unless you need some of the features in 4.2 or 5.0.
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