IT Jobs ???? 4

[DrmWvr]

Are the jobs coming back? There doesn't seem to be much demand for IT workers, except for senior level stuff. At least in Ottawa, Canada. I managed to land a government job doing web development, after graduation, but I think that I'll be stuck here for some time. The security is great, the pay is not bad, but the work is sometimes boring.
I've been reading about programming jobs going overseas, India and the like. So, what IT jobs are going to stay here?

Marc

 

[jrbarnett]

The only stuff that is guaranteed to stay is those that need physical site visits. Anything that can be done via phone, remote control or similar can be sent overseas, and probably will be while there is a significant cost advantage to the organisation.

John

 

[Gatorajc]

Some jobs will come back. It is just a downtime. Yes jobs have gone to India but I mostly see big companies and software companies doing that. Remember 90%(if not 90 something close to that) of all business are small. So once the economy gets going, you will see more jobs.

Granted it will never be close to what it was and for the jobs there are you will see a lot more competition.

AJ


If at first you do not succeed, cheat!

 

[SPguru]

I have said that for a long time too, that most jobs being sent overseas are from large companies and software vendors (large), however, the US economy is built and thrives on small and medium size businesses.

"Ma & Pa Kettle Skillets R US", a small business in a town of 25,000 people and employ 40 people and have 3 people in the IT department are not going to outsource to India.

That is where most jobs are and always have been in America. Thank the scare tactics of the liberals and the leftist media for the scare, which seems to work very well.

 

[DrmWvr]

I guess this could be a weeding out process. The IT industry has become saturated, since the goldrush, with lots of graduates from various schools, some good some bad, and now that times are tough the law of survival has come into play. I believe those that are determined and keep their skills sharp will find work. Although if I had to pick a college program right now, I doubt that it would be computer science.
I don't regret my carreer choice, because I have a decent job. I just hope that I can pay off my student loan before someone in India gets my job.

Marc

 

[dilettante]

I have no doubts whatsoever that a "weeding out" is necessary. What I have considerable doubts about is whether the process going on today is taking this into account, or is merely a gold-rush to cheap labor at the expense of workers and the general economy in countries with higher costs of living.

But it isn't just computer related jobs that are going offshore. There is a steady momentum to move more manufacturing jobs to countries with low-cost labor and weak environmental laws as well. There are also a lot of engineering jobs being moved to those locales as well. Call centers of all kinds have been sent out-of-country.

As for small businesses not taking part in the movement of jobs offshore, one can only wonder why the U.S. House Small Business Committee figures in so many articles on job loss due to offshoring:

http://www.bizjournals.com/extraedge/washingtonbureau/archive/2003/06/30/bureau2.html

http://www.techsunite.org/news/techind/030618_hearing1.cfm

http://pubweb.fdbl.com/news1.nsf/0/c162a8ac60c4606c85256d5700705883?OpenDocument

Search any of those items for "small business" and you'll find the references.

Those dinky shops with 3 IT people are notorious for only having very low-paying entry-level jobs available. After all, what 40-man operation has a need for a Websphere developer or a SAP integrator?

No, it all has the feel of Dicken's Scrooge:

``At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,'' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ``it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.''
``Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge.
``Plenty of prisons,'' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?''
``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.''
``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge.
``Both very busy, sir.''
``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.''

http://www.literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/christmas-carol/chapter-01.html

I suspect the tune of many will change only once their own bread falls butter-side down.

I agree that many claims being made are probably exaggerated in an attempt to gain more attention to this issue. But there is no disputing that hundreds of thousands of jobs have left the U.S. alone, and estimates of future losses are staggering.

http://bandonbythesea.com/forum/messages/2811.html

 

[dwarfthrower]

Yes indeedy, Good morning America, and welcome to the global economy you so adeptly engineered.

What we have here is capitalism at it's grandest. The seller determines the selling price, the buyer determines the buying price. To paraphrase a line from a move: "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake". What the IT worker is, is a person with a certain skillset. A skillset that is posessed by hundreds of thousands of individuals around the world. You sell your skills to your employer, If they find someone else to sell them the same skills at a lower price, what did you expect to have happen?

Funny how 50 years ago you were worried about the communists taking over the world. Now you cry about the capitalists taking over the world and expect your government to implement communist practices to stop them.

 

[dilettante]

Well, there's whining aplenty. The real question is what to do about it. I prefer non-coercive solutions, yet at the same time I don't expect any ghosts to visit employers next Christmas Eve to bring about a change of heart there.

So far the only remedies I've heard suggested are things like "work harder" and "get retrained."

But "'How do you retrain a chemical engineer?' one panelist asked the Small Business Committee." applies to a lot of those people with investments in heavy skill sets in IT as well. And where is the money for all this retraining supposed to come from? And retraining in what exactly again?

Maybe I need to buy a tow truck and go into road service before that market is saturated.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I don't think that most Americans are crying for communist practices to stop the exporting of jobs. There are a few quite vocal ones, but they do not speak for the majority. One good measure of just how prevalent the issue is can be found in how much campaign attention it receives. So far, it's not that high on the priority list.

That being said, it is a both a real problem and a natural phase of a capitalistic economy that is spreading around the world. One must also give credit to the tremendous advances in communications technology which play a critical role in allowing this exportation to be feasible. Another big factor is a flooded labor market, with normal supply and demand forces at work.

But I also believe that things will reach an equilibrium. The labor market will decrease as many current IT workers will follow the money into other careers (tow truck or otherwise). In time, labor costs in other countries will also rise as their various local economies benefit from the influx of jobs, and the special interest groups on the environment and unions and such follow the exported jobs. It will eventually all balance out. But I don't know how long it will take. In the meantime, I hope that Congress continues to investigate the various work visa and programs which have have been abused by a number of corporations.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[GlenJohnson]

I've spent 5 years working as an internet server admin. Guess what, due to a lousy economy and even worse management, mine along with a couple of dozen jobs, (After several hundred lay-offs), has been eliminated. I now run a CNC machine on second shift. I would leave, but some insurance and 401K is better than none. I have my own business but the economy doesn't help that either. I to believe IT jobs will be back, but until the economy itself turns around, it won't happen. Several people with 10 to 25 years where I work lost the positions they had. It's not that they weren't good at there job, they just were not producing product. They were considered secondary's. Let the economy come back first, then the jobs will come back. Good luck to all of us.



Glen A. Johnson
Johnson Computer Consulting
MCP W2K
glen@johnsoncomputers.us


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[Gatorajc]

Just some rambling thoughts.

Is it whining or communist to want a level playing field? It may be but it seems every other country has some kind of laws protecting its workers and I think the US should have some of the same laws as well. I think anything outsourced should be taxed as an import. Because basically that is what it is now. I don't care if it is a product or service.

I was watching a story last night that it is not just engineer jobs that are leaving. Accounting which you would think would be safe is also leaving. So really any job that you do not have to be physically there could be outsourced. I saw Ernest and Young already have a call center in India.

Really in the in it is not the outsourcing that bothers me. Its the head people who can outsource a whole company and live here.

Ahhh I feel better already.

AJ


If at first you do not succeed, cheat!

 

[Gatorajc]

Ok not quite better yet.

Does anyone stop to think of the security concerns having all these programs made offshore, that are running this country? Anyone else worry about backdoors or anything. Granted this could happen even if the software/hardware is made here but seems like a little more insecure overseas.

AJ


If at first you do not succeed, cheat!

 

[DrmWvr]

CajunCenturion's argument about things reaching an equilibrium and IT jobs coming back is interesting. Following that line of reason, American textile workers should be going back to work anytime soon. Of course, I may be comparing apples to oranges, but I think the global economic village will now result in many of us competing globally for jobs. This could create a global common denominator standard of living which will be great for the less-developed countries as their situation improves - China is good example of this. Unfortunately, this windfall could be at the expense of wealthier, developed countries. When and how this erosion takes place is anyone's guess.

I read that 25-percent of Canada's nurses will be able to retire within the next 30 months and a severe shortage will be the result.

Now, there's a promising field to get into. Sign me up.

Marc

 

[GlenJohnson]

The countries best fastener companies are at risk because of fasteners being made in other countries. The companies are even going to congress asking for help. Outsourcing is really hurting this country, both with manufacturing and technology. The place where I had my job eliminated had hired two gents from India as consultants.

Glen A. Johnson
Johnson Computer Consulting
MCP W2K
glen@johnsoncomputers.us


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"The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it."
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[BakeMan]

Thank you dwarfthrower for reminding us that we are "The all singing all dancing c#$p of the word". Here's a star for you.

BAKEMAN

 

[jwenting]

You want a free market when it comes to other countries buying American but NOT when Americans buy in other countries?

Because labour is a commodity to be bought and sold on the open market just as a car or a shipment of steel.

Once companies start realising that the cost of outsourcing to places like India and Russia is often higher than the cost of doing it themselves the jobs at home will come back.

I've been involved (on the sidelines luckily) with several projects where the programming was outsourced to Russia, India, Pakistan and Indonesia.
ONLY the Russian team delivered on spec, on time and on budget. The other projects were all cancelled after serious overruns when months after the project deadline the goods were still not delivered as specified.
These teams were cheaper per man-hour but needed so many more people and time that in the end they were more expensive anyway (the main reason the local companies went for outsourcing was a lack of qualified staff locally or company restrictions on hiring staff when outsourcing was classed as a different level expense which was permitted).

 

[dilettante]

I saw one case where a lack of talent in house led to offshoring.

They had a full quota of staff on hand so they couldn't hire anybody locally. They looked at contracting locally but couldn't get support for it due to costs. That's why they brought in H1-B contractors: the costs looked a LOT lower than local contracting so they were able to justify the decision.

Note that there WAS an "affordable" pool of local talent available. This company just couldn't hire anyone because they had managed (note that word: managed) to "pack the house" will low-skilled workers.

I wonder how often this sort of thing is a factor?

Developers end up flipping burgers when burger-flippers take up the jobs requiring development skills.

 

[Wavesg]

What most of us have failed to understand is that the crisis in the IT world is just part of it's reshaping. The IT field went through a face in which just about anyone could go into it and find a job, in many case people who didn't qualify for the positions. What we will see in the up coming 5 years is a reform in expectations of the companies doing the hiring. IT candidates will be expected to have more then entry level skills to offer. We will also see that knowing different skills will help you land a job much faster than just knowing one specific skill in depth. In conclusion the jobs will be out there, but the requirement will tougher to meet.

 

[GlenJohnson]

What we will see in the up coming 5 years is a reform in expectations of the companies doing the hiring. IT candidates will be expected to have more then entry level skills to offer
I agree, but how do you prove it? I'm running a cnc machine, but I have my own business and I'm keeping up with IT. Studying for my MCSA then MCSE. Rambling again I guess.



Glen A. Johnson
Johnson Computer Consulting
MCP W2K
glen@johnsoncomputers.us

http://www.johnsoncomputers.us

Want to get great answers to your Tek-Tips questions? Have a look at FAQ219-2884

"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn return to the same box."

 

[jwenting]

And not just the question how to prove you have those skills but how to get them in the first place.

I went into IT because such a situation had developed in my own field of study (physics).
Without at least 5 years practical experience in a similar job it was impossible to get hired, but of course unless you get hired you won't gain that experience...
Lucky for me I had been highly interested in IT already and my study had included a healthy amount of useful topics for the field.
Meet a few fellow physicists who got hired in an IT company which happens to have an entry-level position open for someone with the interests and some of the IT skills I'd gained during my study and I was in.

My guess is that unless entry-level positions open up again the only way for people to get into IT jobs for the foreseeable future will be to get noticed.
Whether that is by friends and relatives who work somewhere where there is a job opening, work experience projects at schools or universities, working some other job at the company and mixing with the IT staff during lunchbreaks and talking shop, or building some freeware tool that gets noticed by a company, but entry into the field will get harder.

It is no longer the era where companies hired anyone who could turn on a computer because they had no choice (there being far less people than jobs), companies now once again get many (often hundreds) of applications from experienced people for a single job. People moreover who are more than willing to work for a lot less than they would have earned a few years ago just to have a job at all!

I've been there, done that. Had to take a job earning about half what I had before the company I worked for went under.
Used that as a steppingstone to a better paying job I started this month so I now have most of the lost income back.