Is this policy enough? 2

[Albion]

This is our Internet and Computer acceptable use policy. The powers that be seem to think it is enough to cover the company under all circumstances. I on the other hand, after looking at sample policies on the internet, am starting to wonder why other companies have policies which are pages and pages long. Can you read my policy and let me know what you think? This way I can produce some evidence from people in the field to show the powers that be why we should keep or revamp the current policy. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


--
Our e-mail, computer and Internet systems are company property. These systems are in place to facilitate your ability to do your job efficiently and productively to that end, these systems are solely for business purposes, and any personal use is prohibited. We may intercept, monitor, copy, review and download any communications or files you create or maintain on these systems. These guidelines MUST be followed.

1: When using the Internet, confidential material must be properly encrypted to prevent interception by third parties.
2: E-mail messages may not reveal trade secrets, proprietary financial information, or infringe upon copyrighted materials.
3: All user passwords must be disclosed to the company. This includes logon and encryption passwords.

Your communications and use of our e-mail, computer and Internet systems will be held to the same standard as all other business communications. This includes compliance with our anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policies. We expect you to use good judgment in your use of our company’s system. [User name here] should be notified of unsolicited, offensive materials received by any employee on any of these systems.

Failure to abide by these rules or consent to any interception, monitoring, copying, reviewing and downloading of any communications or files is grounds for discipline, up to and including termination.
--

-cm

 

[Kjonnnn]

Well im fortunate my employers have been goal driven. They dont care what i dont as long as things are running smoothly (whether here with computers or when I was a legal assistant).

I'm of that mindset. As long as users are happy and deadlines are met ....

You'll lose good and smart people cracking the whip over them.

 

[NinaToo]

Perhaps, if you want to severely limit Internet access, simply don't have it on any workstations at all, unless the person there absolutely needs Internet access to do their assigned work tasks. That way, temptation won't be there.

On other issues of productivity: my supervisors, at my old company, and at my current agency, have measured productivity and effort by whether you meet your assigned deadlines or not, and if your work meets their standards of quality i.e. does it constantly get returned from Quality Assurance because it's full of mistakes, or does it pass the majority of QA tests? They didn't do a lot of micro-managing or "clock-watching."

If someone is spending too much of his/her work time surfing the Internet and/or on other non-work-related activities, this will surely show up in their lack of productivity and quality of work. And for that person, a manager can take appropriate action.

Using these guidelines, plus a minimal amount of other supervision i.e. if you happen to catch someone trying to download an illegal media player, then take action against him/her -- you will see that your work will get done.

And work is not supposed to be all "not fun." We have some fun times at work i.e. a "birthday club" each month where we sing "happy birthday" and stuff ourselves with various sweets. Or else a trip to a local restaurant with one's team members which might slightly go over our alloted lunch period -- and yet the team members do discuss work-related issues there.

Plus, when there's a non-oppressive atmosphere at work, then (at least I have found that) computer programming can be fun.

Nina Too

 

[iza]

yeah, where i work is just like kjonnn's - we are adult enough to know that the only important thing is that the users are happy and the product is good (and well done) - and yes, coding IS fun and i'm even happy to go working on mornings
before i used to work in a company that wanted to prohibit internet use ... i don't know anyone who was happy to work there - almost everyone kept looking for workarounds instead of working - and i've never ever seen so many people spending so much time on the internet !!!
[ ok, maybe we are not like americans here, as soon as something isn't allowed the challege is to do the forbidden thing ]
let's face it : you can't be behind everyone's back all day long - nobody can work for 10hours in a row without stopping (and smoking a cigarette is more dangerous than surfing 5 minutes) - i don't know anyone who would be happy to know that his employeers don't trust him (then why did they hire him first ?) and therefore feel the need to monitor any little thing he does ....
you're just doing pain to yourself (worries) and your employees, and you're not even really preventing them from surfing, what's more, you disgust them from working ... doesn't sound very healthy to me !!


------
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[iza]

(what i meant is : if you treat people like children they'll behave like children - if you think you can't trust them, they'll actually become un-trustable (?) - but if you treat them like adult responsible people, that's how they'll behave) ------
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[NinaToo]

Iza wrote:
---------------
[ ok, maybe we are not like americans here, as soon as something isn't allowed the challege is to do the forbidden thing ]
---------------
Actually, Americans are just like anyone else. When adults are treated like trustworthy adults, then most of them will do the responsible thing and will work hard to produce quality products.

When they are "micro-managed," given a glut of unnecessary rules, and basically treated like children, they'll act just like children -- and will attempt to rise up to the challenge of doing the forbidden thing. And quality and productivity goes way down.

By the way, just out of curiosity, what country are you from? It looks like things are not so different after all, around the world.

Nina Too

 

[iza]

i'm from france ... when i went to the states they kept tolding me i was definitly "cut corner" !
and re-reading my posts i realize it looks like i over reacted ... maybe it's just that i don't speak english well enough to be diplomatic ;] or cm's nickname ("albion" - we call England (when we don't like them) "perfide Albion" ...) - anyway the idea is that i think monitoring adult people is not treating them as adult

------
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[NinaToo]

I'm sure management can be a huge headache. Which is why I stick strictly to a technology path as far as my "career ladder" goes. I have no interest in getting involved in management.

But of course somebody has to do the management stuff. Else nothing gets done.

I can understand Albion's dilemma. Because some people will take advantage of privileges given to them, and will try and get out of doing work if they possibly can.

On the other hand, many people, especially in Information Technology, do love the work they do. Just give us an assignment and we'll go off and "rock 'n roll" (as my project leader likes to say). That is, we'll go off and spend our time and effort in working on the assigned project. We'll work overtime if necessary to get a quality product out because we love what we do and we want to do it right.

But most IT people are adults, and know that we are adults. We will get resentful if management treats us like children, doing all sorts of "staring over" everyone's shoulders, and/or doing such tactics as punishing all of us for the transgressions of a few. Go after the bad apples, look over their shoulders, show them the door if necessary because we want them out just as badly as management does.

And most IT folks don't form unions or march in protest or go on strike if we're not treated right. We just search for greener pastures -- and we know that the greener pastures are definitely out there.

Nina Too

 

[iza]

so we 100% agree
just this story to finish it up (ah ah ah i'm sorry i got addicted to this thread ....) : once i saw someone who actually stopped surfing when he learn he could be monitored - when i asked him why (i mean, noone else changed its habits, as we all knew we could stand up and kind of "justify" our surfing, even personnal, as our (hard !) work was always done, and on time), he had the most childish reaction i ever heard from someone i had worked with (and he was older than i am !!!!) : he told me he was afraid to get yelled at by the chief ... not to be fired, not to have its privacy violated, no !!! to be yelled at ...
just to say, the only people accepting to be treated as child i saw are ... already childish !

------
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[Kjonnnn]

If i may add more...

At the company i used to work (and this wasnt a tech company, it was a member run association), we had unlimited sick days, and that even included if your child was sick.

The idea was, that (1) we dont want you here spreading disease because you are out of sick days or scared to take off; and (2) if your child is sick stay home and take care of them, you'll be less productive at work worrying about them.

Many people thought the "world would end" because there would be so much abuse of this policy. Well, there wasnt. It worked VERY well. Of course there were abusers, but they abusers were chatised and turned by their COWORKERS. Because in many cases, when you dont do YOUR work somebody has to take up the slack.

The same with internet usage.. if you're on the net TOO much, it will show because "something" isnt being done.

 

[Albion]

On the other hand, many people, especially in Information Technology, do love the work they do. Just give us an assignment and we'll go off and "rock 'n roll" (as my project leader likes to say). That is, we'll go off and spend our time and effort in working on the assigned project. We'll work overtime if necessary to get a quality product out because we love what we do and we want to do it right.


I use to be there and miss it so much, but the pay now is so much better... Now that I'm a "CTO" I don't get to deal with any of the hands on stuff anymore. When you deal with a lot of politics you really don't have time to deal with piddly stuff like a guy downloading porn on the net. So you do what you can...

But, I still don't see where disallowing personal internet is treating people like children. Maybe you just have a different idea on what work consists of. I mean most of us Xers think work is; More money, more benefits, office with a view, 5 hours of work a week, and to do it all from home. It's just to bad we've gotten such a poor work ethic now. Sure it's great to say, "If you produce, you can do what you want." But what happens when I lose a customer because he came into my office and all my employees were wearing ripped clothing, playing games, on the internet, talking shit by the water cooler . I guess when that happens the work you produced for me is pretty useless because I won't be able to pay your check.


And most IT folks don't form unions or march in protest or go on strike if we're not treated right. We just search for greener pastures -- and we know that the greener pastures are definitely out there.


A year ago I would have agreed with you. Not anymore, IT jobs are getting more difficult to find. The reason is that an MCSE/A+/etc... isn't worth the paper it's written on. Anyone savvy IT person can easily go on the net and get all of the latest MCSE tests and cheat to get a good score. Just because they can find a warez site doesn't mean they know how to administer an OS. I actually once had an MCSE come into my office and ask, "NT is asking me for a CD, what do I do?" No shit, and this guy had his MCSE? shrug

-cm

 

[iza]

Maybe you just have a different idea on what work consists of. I mean most of us Xers think work is; More money, more benefits, office with a view, 5 hours of work a week, and to do it all from home.
so we definiltly have a different idea of what work consists of : as Nina was saying, and it's true for me as well, we LOVE our jobs - meaning 10 hours a day is "normal", i don't care having a view as long as i can view my computer screen , and believe me or not i agreed to be paid WAY less to get a job way more interesting ... and yes, i surf for my personnal pleasure (for instance, to answer you here !!) - i mean, i give a lot, so taking a little is understandable !

It's just to bad we've gotten such a poor work ethic now. Sure it's great to say, "If you produce, you can do what you want." But what happens when I lose a customer because he came into my office and all my employees were wearing ripped clothing, playing games, on the internet, talking shit by the water cooler .
well, if the custumer always had his product in time, bug-free (ok, it's a dream ... let's say almost bug free - very high quality), if your company is the best on its market, i can assure you the customer won't care (it happened to me once - not in this company tho). People look at what you give/sell them, now how you did it as long as the quality is here ... but yes, if he was not sure about your company's good work and he saw what you described, sure he'd run away ...

------
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[NinaToo]

First, this is an interesting discussion and I'm glad we're having it.

At any rate, Albion wrote:
--------------------------
"[NinaToo] 'On the other hand, many people, especially in Information Technology, do love the work they do. Just give us an assignment and we'll go off and "rock 'n roll" (as my project leader likes to say). That is, we'll go off and spend our time and effort in working on the assigned project. We'll work overtime if necessary to get a quality product out because we love what we do and we want to do it right.'

"[Albion] I use to be there and miss it so much, but the pay now is so much better... Now that I'm a 'CTO' I don't get to deal with any of the hands on stuff anymore. When you deal with a lot of politics you really don't have time to deal with piddly stuff like a guy downloading porn on the net. So you do what you can..."
--------------------------
This is one of many reasons why I chose not to go up the management career ladder. Because many of my managers aren't coding or designing any longer, aren't working on the technical aspects any more. Instead, they wind up either with the politics or else with what to do with some idiot downloading porn off the Net.

Fortunately, where I work, as at many work places, there's a technical career ladder. And that's the ladder on which I intend to climb. I could get more money if I were to choose management -- but all the tea in China is not worth the hassles and agendas of upper management.

--------------------------
"But, I still don't see where disallowing personal internet is treating people like children. Maybe you just have a different idea on what work consists of. I mean most of us Xers think work is; More money, more benefits, office with a view, 5 hours of work a week, and to do it all from home."
--------------------------
Actually, I see this policy as creating more hassles than it's worth. If you aren't going to allow personal Internet use during off-duty hours, then I would think that it would be better to simply not put the temptation there. Don't install Internet access on any work stations unless the person working there absolutely has to have it for his/her particular work duties.

But as for the larger issues of trust: At the places I have worked, when Internet has been accessible, 99% of the people do not abuse it. This is because a) we love our work and b) we trust our managers to give us a fair shake for the most part, and they make it clear that they trust us to give them an honest day's work.

And thus we have little, if any, incentive to violate our managers' trust in us to behave like adults and do our work as assigned rather than sit around playing computer games.
--------------------------
"[NinaToo] 'And most IT folks don't form unions or march in protest or go on strike if we're not treated right. We just search for greener pastures -- and we know that the greener pastures are definitely out there.'

"[Albion] A year ago I would have agreed with you. Not anymore, IT jobs are getting more difficult to find. The reason is that an MCSE/A+/etc... isn't worth the paper it's written on."
--------------------------
And I'm so-o-o-o glad that I was fortunate enough to get into the "dinosaur" mainframe languages like COBOL and CICS. s-) Because all those Gen X types never learned it, the colleges stopped teaching it. Instead, they keep churning out all those MCSE, etc. folks, while the Dot.Coms are continuing to lay off.

I don't have to deal with age discrimination or highly-difficult management issues -- if I can code in COBOL/CICS, they couldn't care less how old I am, how much my health insurance might cost, what I wear on the job, etc. This is because there are not a lot of us "dinosaurs" around, hee, hee, hee.

I lost my first job due to poor management. And it only took me 3 months to find a new job with significantly higher pay. All I did is put my resume on those Internet job hunting sites (Headhunters, Monster.com, etc.) and folks kept calling me up every day for interviews.

But also, even in Java and other Dot.com type languages, good-quality experienced programmers are hard to find. The new college-grad types might be stuck on a job even if they hate the company's policies, rules, etc. But when the experienced types are unhappy with a company's management policies, they are the ones who will look for -- and they will quickly find -- greener pastures. And these are the folks that no company can afford to lose.

Good discussion here, Nina Too

 

[Albion]

and yes, i surf for my personnal pleasure (for instance, to answer you here !!)


I don't consider this pleasure it's a computer related help forum. I'm not going to quibble over the content of a message. I would consider going onto

http://www.goofball.com

inappropriate.


People look at what you give/sell them, now how you did it as long as the quality is here ...


People base their opinion on many things including work place. Take for example two grocery stores. The first is neat, all food is in its place, fruit is stacked nicely, and employees are wearing a uniform. The second is messy, boxes all over the place, food isn't organized, fruit is just piled in its rack, and you can't tell an employee from a customer. Taking in account that both stores have the same prices, and are the same distance from your home, where would you shop?

Can I ask a question? How many of you writing in this topic have actually run a successful business? I'm not talking about some consulting endeavor out of your home. I'm talking about a bonified business with a building, a product to produce, and employees.

-cm

 

[iza]

But also, even in Java and other Dot.com type languages, good-quality experienced programmers are hard to find.
yes it is !!!! we are having trouble finding really experienced people - not people that did a tutorial once and now claim that they're experienced ! (and i'm so glad i am amongst those experienced ones - i know some greener pastures await for me somewhere, but right now i don't feel the need to go & check if they are THAT greener - as soon as someone comes and tells me we have a restricted internet policy, or i have to wear classic clothes, i'll go to those greener pastures)
i definitly don't think it jobs are hard to find - IF you are good in your field. If you don't know nothing, of course it's hard to find a job !!! but it's not because of the market - we tend to think that the situation a few years ago when anybody could be hired to do anything in computer sciences was normal .... (believe me i saw people claiming they were highly skilled being very well paid and coming to me in panic when a shortcut disappeared from the window$ desktop ..."someone stoled my app ! we have a virus!" .... she had just removed the shortcut ... this person was in charge of tests for a huge application, targetting more than 200 000 users ... just imagine ... i'm GLAD we do not hire such people anymore, as crual as it can sound)
------
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[NinaToo]

Albion, you wrote:
----------------------
"Can I ask a question? How many of you writing in this topic have actually run a successful business? I'm not talking about some consulting endeavor out of your home. I'm talking about a bonified business with a building, a product to produce, and employees."
----------------------
Not me, I've been a working stiff all my life. Before I got into computer programming, I was a high school mathematics teacher for many years. Besides the "professional" jobs I've had, I've also had some odd jobs through the years, waiting on tables, driving a cab, etc.

But I've worked both for successful businesses and those which aren't so successful. And thus I think that I have an awareness of which overall management philosophies work and what ones don't (I'll leave the specific topic of Internet access aside for now).

The most important factors, I've found are praise, consistency, fairness, and trust.

First, do managers praise and reward their employees when they do outstanding jobs? On my current job, one of my managers rewarded members of my team by paying for our tickets for our division picnic. We also have a formal awards program, complete with assembly, for outstanding achievers to be granted certificates acknowledging their achievments. And our awardees are proud of these certificates.

Or does management take the philosophy that, "if you don't hear anything, then it's OK. If it's not OK, that's when we talk to you?"

And does management use common courtesey? At my old job, though it had many good points, one of its negatives is that apparently they deemed it professional behavior for managers to raise their voices and yell at their workers. I overheard some of this and was also the recipient of some of it. At my current job, I have yet to hear any manager raise their voice at an employee.

Second, does management have consistent policies, or do they keep changing at someone's whim?

Third, are management policies applied equally and fairly? Or are there "favorites" -- those who can get away with breaking the rules? And "scapegoats" -- who are held to impossibly higher standards than the others, and are quickly castigated when they fail to uphold these impossibly high standards?

Fourth, does management essentially trust me to do my job and do it well? Will they let me make independent decisions, only occasionally checking -- knowing that I will follow the specs faithfully, will ask cogent questions when needed, and will be evaluated on the results of my work? Or will someone be constantly looking over my shoulder advising me in minute detail about how to do my job?

Actually, as a teacher, I was a sort of "manager" to classrooms full of inner-city high school students. And like most workers, my students wanted praise, consistency, fairness, and trust. Which I gave them. And I got along fine with the majority of them.

But I got out of teaching mainly because upper management in the education field was (and to my knowledge, still is) so completely clueless. They employ just about all the negative tactics from what I outlined above.

Iza wrote:
----------------------
"[NinaToo] 'But also, even in Java and other Dot.com type languages, good-quality experienced programmers are hard to find.'

"[Iza] yes it is !!!!"
----------------------
This is the key. Experienced programmers. In any language.

My current agency is so desperate for experienced COBOL programmers that they hired a bunch of college graduates without experience and paid them to take classes and be fully trained in COBOL and other mainframe languages.

COBOL is not going anywhere. In many companies, they're getting into VisualAge COBOL and Object Oriented COBOL. Plus CICS, which I have a lot of experience in. CICS is now frequently being used as the interface between Web sites (and Java, HTML, javascripts, etc.) and large mainframe computers which speak in COBOL.

Oh, and my agency can also use experienced Java, C++ and other programers as well, I understand. And no, I'm not recruiting; people will have to find these jobs for themselves the way I did.

Nina Too

 

[iza]

I don't consider this pleasure it's a computer related help forum.
the line is very thin ... actually, as i said above, to me doing any computer related stuff IS a pleasure ... not easy hey ?!

I'm not going to quibble over the content of a message.
me neither )

Take for example two grocery stores. [...] where would you shop?
if the quality & the price were the same, of course i'd go the the "nice" one - that's funny you're taking this example : here we have the 2 kind of stores you're describing, but the 2nd is very very cheaper ... everyone thought that even if cheaper, it's so messy and ugly (the boxes are left opened in the alleys ...) that noone would ever go there ... well they happen to have quite a lot of customers - but ok, nothing to do with our problem

Can I ask a question? How many of you writing in this topic have actually run a successful business?
you touched the point
but i felt like answering coz usually, you only have businessmen talking to business men - meaning, maybe they are right in their business men's point of vue, but they totally lack a "the one who will be managed" point of vue
i'm sure no business man would have told you what we did - and you already know what they would have tell you anyway, so the intersting part was to have the "others"' advice ... or maybe you totally didn't care ?
------
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[Kjonnnn]

Happy workers go that extra mile.
Unhappy workers never want to go behind the scope of their jobs.

 

[Albion]

but i felt like answering coz usually, you only have businessmen talking to business men - meaning, maybe they are right in their business men's point of vue, but they totally lack a "the one who will be managed" point of vue


You think all businessmen/salespeople were always what they are now? Many people worked their way up through the ranks. So they would have the point of view of those being managed, they've just gone beyond that.


The most important factors, I've found are praise, consistency, fairness, and trust.


I agree 100%, but that still doesn't include Personal Internet access. I basically give any anything I get free from my vendors to my people. I give them a lot of leeway; if someone needs to leave early because no one can pick up their kids, if someone needs a day off because they're closing on a new home, or if they came in late because of traffic, I let it go. I do not tolerate daily tardiness or excessive sick days though.

The Internet on the other hand is a different animal. There is no control over it anywhere. People pretty much come and go as they please. If "99% of the people do not abuse it" that means that 1% will. If there is a chance that 1% does something that will make the company look bad or possibly even cause the company monetary loss I can't allow it.

I worked for a consulting company installing novell/unix networks for the CAD (Primarily AutoCAD) industry. We had a customer who had purchased 5 copies of AutoCAD. We went in later to do a standard maintenance checkup and found 5 more copies of AutoCAD installed illegally. The customer was fined and forced to purchase all the illegal copies they had installed. It turned out that the employees who installed the software had acted on their own accord but the company was still responsible. So the company was out quite a bit of money along with down time for AutoDesk to search machines.

-cm

 

[NinaToo]

Albion wrote:
---------------------
"I agree 100%, but that still doesn't include Personal Internet access.
---------------------
Just out of curiosity, has your company considered unhooking all the work stations from the Internet other than those where the worker absolutely has to have the Internet to perform their jobs? Because it seems to me, from what you've said, that the temptation to surf is simply too overpowering. Why not remove the temptation from anyone other than those who absolutely need it for their job duties?

My agency has something called the "Intra-Net." Which is a collection of work-related sites hooked onto a different network than is the broad, vast Internet. You could give your workers access to such an "Intra-Net" and allow them access to that, as it would be strictly work-related and related to your company. But the Internet would be out.

And I'm not sure, but I would bet that your company could set up its Intra-Net to include sites such as Tek-Tips.

Nina Too

 

[MissPat]

Albion, you seem overly concerned with the possibility that some of your employees would do something that would hurt the company. Were they that untrustworthy when they were hired? If so, why were they hired? In terms of risk management, you have gone way over to the micro-micro management side. Users can be prevented from installing anything on their workstations; this is only good network management. Sites can be off-limits; tell your folks what sites are no-nos and trust them to respect the limits. At the same time, you can make it known that unintentional infractions are not going to result in drastic punishment. With the advent of pop-unders, questionable sites can appear to have been read for long periods of time, when most of them are under the site being read, and are not found until the site and/or the browser are closed. Most users will self-report these sites, to avoid suspension of their privileges. Punish the rule-breakers, not the entire organization. Reasonable Internet policies will be respected; authoritarian, rigid rules challenge even the most trustworthy individual. Bottom line is: HIRE TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE AND LET THEM KNOW THEY ARE TRUSTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING. You'd be surprised how well that works.