Is there really any money left for MCSEs? 8

[yokeydokey]

Three or four years ago, a person with a college degree and a few years experience with Microsoft products could make a pot full of money. (That's why we work, right?) Then, while I was in the process of getting MS exams out of the way, the bottom fell out. I've recently seen MCSEs working for $12US/hour - janitor's wages. I bagged the certification strategy and got into management. So, where's the money? What's the market look like for an MCSE these days? If you reply, note where you are (city, country, etc.)

 

[mozingod]

Deversify... it's the only way. A company is more likely to hire someone w/Windows/Linux/C++/Java/ASP/*add skills here* than someone who is just really good at one skill. Darrell Mozingo
MCSA, A+, Network+, i-Net+, MOUS 2000 Master

 

[Gatorajc]

I think as far as MCSE's JazzGeek is right. It is easy it is not enough to be a tech but to prove all IT work is not having a hard time(or as hard a time). Check out the Oracle or Unix forums. Don't see any complaining about how hard it is to find a job or money in there. Just questions about the exam what this forum use to be like. AJ
I would lose my head if it wasn't attached.

 

[JazzGeek]

Amen Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[butchrecon]

I agree, the MCSE is easy to get and Windows Networking for the most part is easy to learn. As I stated earlier Systems security and Unix Networking are more complicated and not easy to learn. Advanced troubleshooting is also an area that is difficult to learn. The MCSE wont help people much there. This comes through experience and know how, not jsut knowhow. You are right Jazzgeek in that high schoolers are goeeting thier MCSE. I do think HR and hiring managers are starting to catch on to this. Thats why when I do see some adds for techs they are asking for more than 3 years experience. A bright spot in a dark market maybe? James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[JazzGeek]

Let's hope. We could use a bright spot. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[jtb]

A couple of years ago, two of my team got into an argument--well, really a debate--about whether it made sense to strengthen one's techie skills or one's business skills.

The techie-oriented colleague went off to a dotcom and made and lost a couple millions in stocks and options during the IPO and subsequent tumble... not sure where he ended up...

The business-oriented colleague went to Asia, finagled his way into a management position, leveraged himself into a sales support/business development role, took a new account, and now he's a regional manager with 4 or 5 account managers (and unknown numbers of team leaders and individual performers) reporting to him...

Neither of these fellows had an MCSE or other certification, so the point is probably moot; but I think that the one thing we have that the 15 year old MCSEs don't have is life experience. Go get the Dale Carnegie book, get "Who stole my cheese", get 5 or six other books on business leadership, marketing, and communication skills.

Read it, learn it, live it. The maturity and wisdom of us "older folks" can supplement our skills--at whatever level--and make us attractive to the folks we want to hire us and pay us well...

Good luck, good hunting... JTB
Solutions Architect
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSA, MCSE-W2K, MCIWA, SCSA, SCNA in progress)

 

[gurner]

I have the tag *Consultant* on my Job Spec, but hate that word, just to much experiance of meeting Boot Camp/Paper MCSEs.

But that aside, the main reason i have posted is because i really feel i can do more than DB Consulting and Win2K Network Admin.

A couple of things have got me dreaming.

It is a 50/50 between Security or 3G/Bluetooth/GPRS/GSM (Wireless voice/data, VoIP e.t.c. the whole bundle, H323 the lot)

How do you get into that line? without blagging it and getting way!!! out of my depth.

A friend works as solution sales for a Voice/Data specialist and i know he could get me in, but i'm reluctant to go into their IS department as LAN Admin or the like when i already do it here (and do not dislike it!)

Problem is on their Security side and the Voice/Data parts, i know they offer excellant training onsite and offsite courses, but it is getting the foot stuck in the door, getting them to recognise that i will learn it but am coming from a entry level rather than experianced.

When i got in on the entry level to MS based technical support and then installation and consulting with my current employer, there is a flood of resources to fill your head.

Looking for Security (beyond MS based) resources and Voice/Data is a bit hit and miss!

You either get into Link Loop with all the available Training sites (dont trust them anyway, to many offering MCSEs on a plate)

And don't get me started on how am i going to get the experiance, short of hoping that EBay might one day have a dirt cheap Alteon Switched Firewall, Sun Solaris box or Nokia VoIP Gateway (oh god! the cost!) i dunno what i am gonna do.

None of what i will do will be employer sponsored (he'd have a fit if i asked him to send me on a course to learn any of this)

Thanks

 

[JazzGeek]

Go to school. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[gurner]

What school?

How Much?

What time?

Last time i looked evening classes didn't deal in this sort of thing!

Do you want to pay my mortgage whilst i jolly off to university for the next 4 years?

 

[jtb]

Everything worth having comes with a price.

Make a 20 year plan (i.e., in 20 years I want to be X, Y, and Z). Draw up 10, 5, 3, 2, and 1 year plans that match up with those goals.

Make sacrifices. Do it as you planned--but make appropriate changes. Involve as much of your friends and family as appropriate. Surround yourself with people who have a positive outlook. Forgive the others for trying to drag you back into the crab-bucket and then dump them.

JTB
Solutions Architect
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSA, MCSE-W2K, MCIWA, SCSA, SCNA in progress)

 

[gurner]

I am so glad you said that.

our town's nick name is the crab pot!

 

[JazzGeek]

Girth? ARe you kidding? I work full time and I take computer classes at night and on the weekends. If I can do it, so can you. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[gurner]

Sorry, this is not rude, but what country are you in?

no courses i have looked for in colleges in a radius of 50miles of where i am looking have anything of any use other than MOUS or CLAIT or ECDL or V Basic stuff

I am looking stuff mentioned in my first posting.

if you are in the UK and know of anywhere that does these courses, and are at a cost that won't bankrupt me.

please let me know

 

[Ryon]

I am what most of you would call a paper 2k MCSE but I do not consider myself one. I am currently working as a contractor at a helpdesk. I feel like I have alot of potential compared to some of the guys I work with.

I have a guy who sits next to me who is a NT4 MCSE. I asked him how much data is on a certain CD and he honestly looked at me and said" about a 1/4 of an inch.".
After i got done laughing my ass off behind his back, I realized something.This guy has his A+ and his MCSE hanging on the wall above his head and this guy doesn't know anything.I know he is not the only one out there, which in turn makes all MCSE look bad. To watch him work and know that he is equally qualified(certified) as me is just depressing!
I know I need to further my education, but I'm a little confused about which path to take. I'am good with Access
and have created 2 database applications that are in use at companys, but I dont know If I have what it takes be a programmer. I enjoy networking but i feel that the market is so flooded that it is almost pointless. I am sure I am not the only one out there who thinks that half these Boot camps should be sued for false advertisment. 60'000 to start. yeah, maybe 2 years ago.

 

[JazzGeek]

Yes, very true. Learn VB, ASP, CF, and Java, and you'll always have a job. Learn security and you'll always have a job. Get government clearance and you'll always have a job. What the H*LL is an MCSE doing at a HELPDESK!? That's terrible and pathetic. Helpdesk are for kids' who don't have any computer experience, must less an MCSE. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[sdibias]

I'm from Los Angeles and broke with NO job! I'm an MCSE/MCSA/MCP in Win2k, and the market is terrible! I can't even work an internship for free; people don't even do that around here. I got in this field because I loved it, but by the time I was trying to slip in somewhere our economy slipped as well. I have no idea what I'm going to do, accept maybe work at CompUSA (if they even hire me) for $8.00/HR being a PC tech? The problem I'm having is real, this is my life. I'm not in it for the money, but it would be nice to start saving up, considering my fiancé and I are supposed to be getting married in the not-so-distant future.

May God bless you all, and good luck in your endeavors

jobseek3r@yahoo.com
sdibias
MCSE 2000

 

[neillovell]

Wow sorry to hear that sdibias, hope you find something good soon!

 

[NickFerrar]

Whilst it may be true basic network support and even getting a 'paper' MCSE isn't too difficult there are plenty of things many admins/analysts/consultants do on a daily basis that are far from easy and require experience as well as qualifications.

Yes there are too many MCSE's out there now but there is still demand for MCSE's with experience, albeit much less than a couple of years ago. If you view a 15-year getting an MCSE as a threat then you either aren't too bright or you seriously under-value your skills.

I work as a Senior Technical Analyst for a global IT consultancy and I could care less even if Doogie Howser applied for my job. You need experience and people skills foremost and qualifications just as a way of gaining some initial credibility.

For sure I feel sorry for people just coming out of school or university expecting to walk into highly-paid IT jobs, that isn't going to happen unless your father runs the company. Hopefully things will turn around soon but the trouble is in the meantime more and more people will be falling into the pool to recruit from before this happens. I hope you guys get lucky.

For the people with experience and qualifications to go with it that are looking for work - again things are tough but the reason isn't 15-year olds flooding the market it's simply less overall demand and a growth in the number of experienced and qualified people you are competing against. There is still demand for these people though and if you sell yourself well (i.e. don't just send you CV to a recruitment agency and assume they'll do a job targetting your CV to vacancies...) in time you should be able to get a job suited to your skills.

 

[CharlieJax]

More often than not I will see people suggest that they need to get more technical training before they can find a job...

well... truth be told there may be something to that, but business is about more than just understanding your position.

Companies want someone that can punch out code with one hand, provide customer service through the head phone and technical support with the other hand. It's no longer enough just to be MCSE certified, or have a BS in computer science.

I'll tell you right now, if you walk into my office and all you have is technical experience, you will not get the job, I will hire someone who can grasp where the company is, where it wants to go, and how to get there before I'd hire someone who can punch out 10,000 lines of code a day. (Of course that is because programmers scare me, but that's another story).

Anyway, the point being, just diversifying yourself in technology isn't going to do you any good. You have to bring more to the table. Today's IT department is not a cost center any more, we are a revenue stream, a marketing tool, a manufacturing system, were even a product and sales people.

The problem in the market today is that there are fewer jobs and there are more people looking for those jobs AND that employers want you to be able to do more than just flex your technical know how.

Managers know they can send anyone to a MCSE course and get them certified, but they cannot send anyone to a two week course and have them come out with the ability to understand their business, the market, their customers, their suppliers, and so on.

For those looking to get into the technical field I give this advice:

Spend time learning the business of business. Knowing the technology you want to use (especially for programmers) is important (I could teach a blind ape with only two toes to admin. a Windows 2000 network in 20 days).

Remember knowing how the technology works is useless if you cannot apply it to improve the company's process. If you don't present yourself to the hiring manager in ways that can do that, then you are waiting your time and theirs. CJ
- If chickens could fly would they egg ugly people?

 

[SteveFoster]

"I could teach a blind ape with only two toes to admin. a Windows 2000 network in 20 days"

Thank you for that,

Steve,
Windows 2000 network admin.