Is there really any money left for MCSEs? 8

[yokeydokey]

Three or four years ago, a person with a college degree and a few years experience with Microsoft products could make a pot full of money. (That's why we work, right?) Then, while I was in the process of getting MS exams out of the way, the bottom fell out. I've recently seen MCSEs working for $12US/hour - janitor's wages. I bagged the certification strategy and got into management. So, where's the money? What's the market look like for an MCSE these days? If you reply, note where you are (city, country, etc.)

 

[jtb]

Market? I'd laugh if it didn't hurt so bad...

Lots of "spare" folks in Texas... I hope the situation turns around soon... I've even seen Cisco-certs wandering around looking for sub-$20/hr part-time gigs... JTB
Solutions Architect
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSA, MCSE-W2K, MCIWA, SCSA, SCNA in progress)

 

[Zelandakh]

I'm in London and MCSEs are being offered less than train drivers...

The market is down at the mo, but hopefully the bigwigs at the top will start to notice the business suffering from lack of proper support and will start hiring again.

We can live in hope!

 

[Gatorajc]

In Boca Raton, Florida it is tough as well. Everything goes in cycles we just happen to be in a bad time, the one thing I learned in economics class.

Look at Pharmacists, from what I learned they made a very good salary but then there was a flood of people that followed that career path so they could make the money. Well the market became staturated and the money became less and people looked at different careers. Look at it now with the Baby Boomers demand is very great for them again. My friend from just graduated from Pharmacy school making $80,000 Dollars remind you of a certain career path a few years ago. In time it well die down as well.

Hopefully this puts some perspective on it. Keep your skills sharp and ride it out. AJ
I would lose my head if it wasn't attached.

 

[butchrecon]

Will the market turn around for MCSE/MCSA/MCP or any Certified Pro? Probably not. You have to remember there are tons of boot camps spitting out tons and tons of certified techs. Its simple economics.. Supply versus demand. The supply of certified techs is great while the demand is small. The days of IT departments hirings many techs to fill their needs are gone. Now techs need to be jack of all trades and be very flexable because companies are seeing they dont need all that salary under their roof. You want to make money go into management or IT security. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[JazzGeek]

Amen, James. That's just the way it is.

I know a 15 year old kid who just graduated from MCSE boot camp, has passed 6 tests and will be a full blown MCSE at the end of this month. Plus, he's a web wizard, a perl programmer, a graphics expert. On top of all this, he told me there were 10 other people in the class under 20 years old!

Let's face the facts: this type of work is too easy. Everyone does it, everyone is good at it. It's just like being a secretary, and in fact, many secretaries make more money per hour than MCSE's.

Sad, very sad. But true, very true. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[butchrecon]

Its unfortunate. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[Zelandakh]

well, its not as bad as you paint it. Yes, there are a lot of paper MCSEs, but they tend to fall on their faces when you give them something that's not in the book.

I've found that real life situations can really throw the inexperienced and then they have to call the experts in!

Paper MCSEs will get their asses burned and won't get repeat work - those of us who can demonstrate the level of knowledge / resourcefulness / problem solving that "we" have, will rise to the top of the pile. Hopefully, we'll stay in decent work.

And yes, it is easy...

 

[JazzGeek]

I agree. But, it's an overlapping line. Makes no impact. This work is too easy, and these paper MCSE's are GETTING experience so they won't flounder when the time comes.

Hey, we can always sell cars. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[Zelandakh]

Hey JazzGeek - if you've got a dealership, I'm game...

 

[mrDrive]

Reading all of this is starting to scare me. I'm finishing a B.S.B.A in MIS in Dec and have little experience other than tech support at my university. From what I hear, all these tech schools are churning out so many cert'd techs that ALL of us "entry level" folks are a dime a dozen.

 

[JazzGeek]

Well, actually there are no more "entry level" people. There are only experienced MCSE's who can't even GET an entry level position! It's that bad out there. I tell everyone I meet, do NOT go into MIS. Doesn't matter if you enjoy it, just don't do it. If you do, you'll be forced to live off secretary's wages, (if you're lucky!) Become a school teacher or a trash man, but don't do MIS. The expression we are a dime a dozen, is underatted by far. It's more like we are cent a million. Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer

 

[butchrecon]

Thats the truth. Even with experience, landing a job can be very difficult, a good paying job that is. There just are too many techs out there. THough the basics if IT is easy to pick up on, the more advanced stuff used today is not. Subnetting and UNIX networking are two things you cant learn is a boot camp. Sure boot amps can show subnetting and talk about Unix inegration, however only through exerience can you really pick up on the advanced concepts. Specializing in one of these areas can really set techs apart. All those boot camp graduates out there are getting experience, just not all around experience. Entry level positions can only get some one so far. Even if they are MCSE certified. A company hiring wold more likely go for an uncertified tech who knows hardware, Windows and UNIX (NOT just LINUX) over a Certified MCSE who may knw hardware and Windows but has no UNOX knowlege or may have soem UNIX knowlege because they played with LINUX. So dont get too far bent out over the lack of jobs. IF you have the knwlege and the exeriience something will show up sooner or later. Just show what youcan do when the time comes. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[butchrecon]

Thats the truth. Even with experience, landing a job can be very difficult, a good paying job that is. There just are too many techs out there. THough the basics if IT is easy to pick up on, the more advanced stuff used today is not. Subnetting and UNIX networking are two things you cant learn is a boot camp. Sure boot amps can show subnetting and talk about Unix inegration, however only through exerience can you really pick up on the advanced concepts. Specializing in one of these areas can really set techs apart. All those boot camp graduates out there are getting experience, just not all around experience. Entry level positions can only get some one so far. Even if they are MCSE certified. A company hiring wold more likely go for an uncertified tech who knows hardware, Windows and UNIX (NOT just LINUX) over a Certified MCSE who may knw hardware and Windows but has no UNOX knowlege or may have soem UNIX knowlege because they played with LINUX. So dont get too far bent out over the lack of jobs. IF you have the knwlege and the exeriience something will show up sooner or later. Just show what youcan do when the time comes. h James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[butchrecon]

opps. hit submit 1 too many times. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[CharlieJax]

I don't belive the market is as bad as everyone says and here is why:

In August of 2000 my old company told us we were going to be let go, my release date turned out to be April 1 (which got extended to July 15th... and probably would have been extended longer as the site I worked at is now remaining open... but that is a diffrent story...

Anyway, in August I started to talk with recruiters and watched the market and the IS field go to pot, laughing as my chances at getting a new postion quicly faded...

Between August and March I chatted with a HERD of recruiters, they were just about banging down my door (as recruiters will do)

In March I became a little more serious about finding a new postion and set the recruiters out to do there job and sent out my resume to maybe 50 - 150 places between the time I started really looking for a new job and the time I accepted a postion...

At the start of the whole process I told the resume specialist my company had hired that it would take me a few days to find a job... maybe 2 weeks, as it turned out it took a little longer.

April and May rolled around and I had a few interviews... mostly programming stuff where I am no where near strong enough for what the market wanted those days, I am strong enough for what the market wanted in 99... oh well, I couldn't program 8 hours a day, I'd go batty.

June came around and suddenly I got a few calls about technical support, which I was wanting to move away from and toward more of web development and support... but hey, whatever pays the bills at that point, I had a July 15th end day hanging over my head.

I interviewed with a few companies that ended the interview as soon as they heard what I was asking...

Then I interviewed with Executrain to teach web development to people and that went well, then a technical postion with a law firm that went well, and a technical postion with a non-profit that went well...

In the end I was offered the last three postions and turned down Executrain and the law firm even though they were the highest paying (by a few thousand) Executrain because of the hours and the Law Firm because they wanted me to move to KC...

I accepted the non-profit postion, a good pay raise from my last position, and it incuded technical support, web development, design, database development, etc etc etc... Basicly mixing together a lot of the things I can do.

My advice to people that say the market is just not there is to look back at themselves, perhaps you are the problem and not the market... yes there is a lot of flack out there from the paper MCSE'ers and the younger crowd, but you have to sell yourself, prove your worth spending the money on.

Remember, Pepsi was able to take over a market that Coke ruled for years and years, so if your having trouble finding a position, then there is a good chance the problem is the way YOU are trying to sell yourself and not the way the market is...

One other thing, want to make yourself a better technical person? Don't take MCSE classes, take MARKETING classes, learn the business you work for or want to work for; and my #1 peice of advice for looking for a job, control the interview, if your leading the way, then you can set the tone... When they ask you questions answer them and then lead into another area where you might be able to improve the company, lighten the mood with a joke, and keep the interview flowing... that first impression is what is going to get you the job, the resume got you in, now you have to sell yourself again. CJ
- If chickens could fly would they egg ugly people?

 

[butchrecon]

CharlieJax
You are correct in that ones self may be there worst enemy when it comes to job hunting. However a persona national region has a bit of pull on job hunting as well. Some areas of the country just don't have a whole lot of employment available. If you don't mind moving then there are plenty if jobs out there. If you want to stay in 1 place then the list gets smaller. There are plenty of low paying entry level positions. However the higher paying jobs are harder to come by. Maybe you are right that some of these people just are not selling themselves well enough. Not everyone knows how to, or where to find recruiters. Maybe someone should create an FAQ on these topics. ;-) James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[CharlieJax]

Yeah... but I'm too lazy to do that CJ
- If chickens could fly would they egg ugly people?

 

[butchrecon]

I hear ya. lol James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[JazzGeek]

Guys guys!! We both know that's a bunch of dog poop. The fact is, 15 year old kids are getting MCSE's, and adults have to compete with them. We choose to do work that is very easy, for everyone, even grandma. We laid our bed and now we must sleep in it.

Reality check.

Sebastian Jazzer
MCSE 4.0, Network+, A+, Web Developer