Seems like the number of poor implementors is surging up again, or is that just my impression? Is it more BP's getting into IPO without training maybe, or what do you think it is? Am I the only one who seems to see this trend? Has Avaya dropped the two implement PA techs requirement for a BP to implement the IPO, or just not enforcing it?
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Is there a new surge of IPO implementors/Sellers? 2
- Thread starter aarenot
- Start date
kflounders
Programmer
0 enforcement. I got a call from a frantic BP begging me to help him with an install on a Sunday. I got remote access into the system and saw that they had no button programming, mismatched releases and both VM Lite and Pro running. I wanted to blow him off, but it would not just harm his name but Avayas at the same time, so I charged him a staggering amount and made the customer functional for Monday.
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- #3
Hello Gents
it seems like it or maybe it has just made it's rounds that there is good advice on Tek Tips that save you from using your own brain and reading the manual, but some questions should not even be answered if they are so basic that a 2 minute look into the pdf would explain it in detail rathern then posting on Tek Tips and wasting everybodies time. Maybe we have to be choosier in what questions we are answering, and also what questions we are posting otherwise this forum will get flooded with useless stuff.
Joe W.
FHandw.
ACA
ACS
it seems like it or maybe it has just made it's rounds that there is good advice on Tek Tips that save you from using your own brain and reading the manual, but some questions should not even be answered if they are so basic that a 2 minute look into the pdf would explain it in detail rathern then posting on Tek Tips and wasting everybodies time. Maybe we have to be choosier in what questions we are answering, and also what questions we are posting otherwise this forum will get flooded with useless stuff.
Joe W.
FHandw.
ACA
ACS
- Thread starter
- #4
Actually the easy questions of the level of finding it in the USER manual is really the level that a forum should be targeting. By limiting the help in this manner you are not providing support for something a product authorized tech should be doing to someone who has no business, or product authorization to be doing.
I see a few different type posters on this forum.
1) Customer administrator is someone who should have some basic training provided by their implementor. They deserve some support to establish if their implementor is competent, or if they are a POSER to help them establish if they should seek another BP. Sorry if you are a BP, and do not like this, but if you are incompetent it is probably your fault, and not even your techs since their competence is your responsibility. If there are no techs localy then we should help them if they have tried to let us find them someone localy. If they want advanced help they should be training themsleves by reading the manual, and contributing to helping others in the forum as well.
2) Product authorized techs. They should get our help as that is what I see as the purpose of a forum like this. helping other than this group, and other than USER manual questions hurts this group as this is how we make our living to pay for those courses, time, and testing/training expenses.
3) POSERS are those that have no product authorizations(sales does not count in a tech forum!). Sorry if you make your living off of a product for which you have not met the product authorization criteria to implement it, but you are also posing as someone you are not, and charging for it while taking business away from those that have done the right thing to legitimately charge for working on the product. You as a group represent the biggest problem with the IPO's repuation, because you do not know what you are doing as a rule with few exceptions. Now to be specific, most of the end customers I have had to bail out have been those who used someone who was not product authorized to even be implementing the system, and POSED as someone who was by implementing it.
If you are wondering I had my PA's before I ever had IPO as my responsibility to service, or install.
Lastly, Avaya is really only hurting the IPO istself by allowing BP's to purchase the system if they do not have the PA's met to implement. If you are considering buying an IPO ask to see at least two techs with their product authorization verification in hand when you meet them, or move on to a real IPO implementor, not just a POSER. Also, make sure the person who is implementing your IPO also has a PA documented as well, or make your BP replace them, and let them know up front you are going to demand to see the PA's of the specific tech that implements your system.
I see a few different type posters on this forum.
1) Customer administrator is someone who should have some basic training provided by their implementor. They deserve some support to establish if their implementor is competent, or if they are a POSER to help them establish if they should seek another BP. Sorry if you are a BP, and do not like this, but if you are incompetent it is probably your fault, and not even your techs since their competence is your responsibility. If there are no techs localy then we should help them if they have tried to let us find them someone localy. If they want advanced help they should be training themsleves by reading the manual, and contributing to helping others in the forum as well.
2) Product authorized techs. They should get our help as that is what I see as the purpose of a forum like this. helping other than this group, and other than USER manual questions hurts this group as this is how we make our living to pay for those courses, time, and testing/training expenses.
3) POSERS are those that have no product authorizations(sales does not count in a tech forum!). Sorry if you make your living off of a product for which you have not met the product authorization criteria to implement it, but you are also posing as someone you are not, and charging for it while taking business away from those that have done the right thing to legitimately charge for working on the product. You as a group represent the biggest problem with the IPO's repuation, because you do not know what you are doing as a rule with few exceptions. Now to be specific, most of the end customers I have had to bail out have been those who used someone who was not product authorized to even be implementing the system, and POSED as someone who was by implementing it.
If you are wondering I had my PA's before I ever had IPO as my responsibility to service, or install.
Lastly, Avaya is really only hurting the IPO istself by allowing BP's to purchase the system if they do not have the PA's met to implement. If you are considering buying an IPO ask to see at least two techs with their product authorization verification in hand when you meet them, or move on to a real IPO implementor, not just a POSER. Also, make sure the person who is implementing your IPO also has a PA documented as well, or make your BP replace them, and let them know up front you are going to demand to see the PA's of the specific tech that implements your system.
i recently moved from one company to another, and went through the proper channels, to move my avaya credentials over. In my mind (as i was the only tech there, it was a very small company) i was expecting a call the next day from my old boss to say "thanks very much, i cant buy kit now!!" i havent heard from them, so i assume they are still running. with no techs
I hope that doesnt make me sounds like a pr!ck, i wasnt trying to stitch them up, but i took the courses, and passed the exams, so if i am no longer there why should they be able to buy and sell based on credentials i had earned.(and paid for!)
but i guess avaya dont enforce it, which is only going to cause problems.
i have only been on here a few months, and havent really given anything back, so i do appreciate the fact that people take the time to help people out on here, it really is a brilliant site, but it does seem bogged down by lots of things that are no brainers to anyone who has installed an ipo before. i am probably guilty of it once or twice before, but from now on i will always read up first, and really try to sort the problem myself before calling for help
just reread all that and i am gonna let you make your own minds up as to wether it makes sense or not?
![[banghead]](/data/assets/smilies/banghead.gif "[banghead] [banghead]")
Tom ![[curse]](/data/assets/smilies/curse.gif "[curse] [curse]")
I hope that doesnt make me sounds like a pr!ck, i wasnt trying to stitch them up, but i took the courses, and passed the exams, so if i am no longer there why should they be able to buy and sell based on credentials i had earned.(and paid for!)
but i guess avaya dont enforce it, which is only going to cause problems.
i have only been on here a few months, and havent really given anything back, so i do appreciate the fact that people take the time to help people out on here, it really is a brilliant site, but it does seem bogged down by lots of things that are no brainers to anyone who has installed an ipo before. i am probably guilty of it once or twice before, but from now on i will always read up first, and really try to sort the problem myself before calling for help
just reread all that and i am gonna let you make your own minds up as to wether it makes sense or not?
Tom
codermonkey
IS-IT--Management
Interesting thread, my 2 cents worth:
My vantage point, is completely different because I don't fall into any of the groups above mentioned; not a BP, or PA or even a POSER
No, no wait, don't ignore me yet, I might have something interesting to say...
Anyway, I'm an end user, but a slightly different one. I implemented the IPO myself. And here is the first problem, how the hell was I able to purchase the system without any kind of Avaya training or authorization. The wonderful world of the internet. Went online, and purchased each component I needed.
I think this might be the first problem; anyone can buy the components and become a POSER, and start offering to install the IPO. Maybe Avaya should ONLY sell to authorized persons.
Having purchased all the components, I found myself in very interesting no mans land. No one wanted to know me. Avaya told me to go away cos I'm not a BP, nor do I have a maintenance contract, and the site which sold me the hardware told me to contact Avaya. "Serves you right" I hear you shout. Fair enough. However, in my research into the IPO, I did not come across the statement: Unless you are a BP Avaya will tell you to #$%$ off, not did the reseller tell me: "You're on your own". I made a presumption, that if I buy a piece of hardware (irrelevant if its phone systems) the manufacturer will at least replace it, if it was faulty and not tell me to go to a BP. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not crying, I'm just pointing out that its too easy to buy the hardware and become a POSER.
I did a lot of research before I pulled the trigger on the IPO. I had quotes for just about every phone system imaginable. I want with IPO, because having read through the installation manuals I felt it was the only phone system which I can at least attempt to install and maintain myself.
I was successful, it was a pain in the neck, however I totally expected that because its something I never worked with before.
Now for the role of this forum:
I think this forum is fabulous, and I'm very appreciative of the fact that experts take the time to answer my questions. I certainly do the same, on other forums in topics where I feel I'm an expert. I certainly agree, that sometimes there are question posted here, which even I know where to find answers to in the manual. However, I don't think we should use a canon to kill a fly. Even though, you might consider yourself an expert, I'm sure at some point you learned something, from someone on this forum.
Fell free to flame me.
My vantage point, is completely different because I don't fall into any of the groups above mentioned; not a BP, or PA or even a POSER
No, no wait, don't ignore me yet, I might have something interesting to say...Anyway, I'm an end user, but a slightly different one. I implemented the IPO myself. And here is the first problem, how the hell was I able to purchase the system without any kind of Avaya training or authorization. The wonderful world of the internet. Went online, and purchased each component I needed.
I think this might be the first problem; anyone can buy the components and become a POSER, and start offering to install the IPO. Maybe Avaya should ONLY sell to authorized persons.
Having purchased all the components, I found myself in very interesting no mans land. No one wanted to know me. Avaya told me to go away cos I'm not a BP, nor do I have a maintenance contract, and the site which sold me the hardware told me to contact Avaya. "Serves you right" I hear you shout. Fair enough. However, in my research into the IPO, I did not come across the statement: Unless you are a BP Avaya will tell you to #$%$ off, not did the reseller tell me: "You're on your own". I made a presumption, that if I buy a piece of hardware (irrelevant if its phone systems) the manufacturer will at least replace it, if it was faulty and not tell me to go to a BP. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not crying, I'm just pointing out that its too easy to buy the hardware and become a POSER.
I did a lot of research before I pulled the trigger on the IPO. I had quotes for just about every phone system imaginable. I want with IPO, because having read through the installation manuals I felt it was the only phone system which I can at least attempt to install and maintain myself.
I was successful, it was a pain in the neck, however I totally expected that because its something I never worked with before.
Now for the role of this forum:
I think this forum is fabulous, and I'm very appreciative of the fact that experts take the time to answer my questions. I certainly do the same, on other forums in topics where I feel I'm an expert. I certainly agree, that sometimes there are question posted here, which even I know where to find answers to in the manual. However, I don't think we should use a canon to kill a fly. Even though, you might consider yourself an expert, I'm sure at some point you learned something, from someone on this forum.
Fell free to flame me.
Go buy all the IPO you want from anywhere you wan't. This forum can only take you so far. Be prepared to pay to get your problems fixed.
I remote into 20 systems a day for all kinds of issues. I get paid to do it. I'm good at it. If you're not willing to pay for help, you deserve all your problems.
I remote into 20 systems a day for all kinds of issues. I get paid to do it. I'm good at it. If you're not willing to pay for help, you deserve all your problems.
- Thread starter
- #8
kflounders,
In that case, I would suggest offering a remote maint programming contract to the BP as part of the project. They will probably go for it if they are in that spot, and then you can sleep easy knowing you are not helping them perpetuate a fraud on the customer. The BP can take it as a learning experience, get their people qualified, and then have the service work if they so choose. Otherwise they have someone to service what they sold going forward, so everyone wins. You can then offer your services to implement, and support going forward with a clear conscience.
In that case, I would suggest offering a remote maint programming contract to the BP as part of the project. They will probably go for it if they are in that spot, and then you can sleep easy knowing you are not helping them perpetuate a fraud on the customer. The BP can take it as a learning experience, get their people qualified, and then have the service work if they so choose. Otherwise they have someone to service what they sold going forward, so everyone wins. You can then offer your services to implement, and support going forward with a clear conscience.
codermonkey
IS-IT--Management
Ronromano,
A slightly harsh response to my post, I feel. Especially as I pointed out a number of times, that I totally understand my choices and am not complaining by any stretch of the imagination.
I could take the same harsh approach as you, and say that why would I waste my money on you, when I can simply fix it my self. IPO is no brain surgery, I installed it (over a weekend) with absolutely no downtime for the company, and have maintained it for well over a year with no problems at all.
A slightly harsh response to my post, I feel. Especially as I pointed out a number of times, that I totally understand my choices and am not complaining by any stretch of the imagination.
I could take the same harsh approach as you, and say that why would I waste my money on you, when I can simply fix it my self. IPO is no brain surgery, I installed it (over a weekend) with absolutely no downtime for the company, and have maintained it for well over a year with no problems at all.
codermonkey, it is easy when it is default but there are rules you have to keep in mind
If you do not know those rules it is easy to mesh up the whole system
When the simple config becomes a complicated config then most is/it managers are getting stuck
That is no attack to is/it manager but it is a different kind of work
Out of the box an ipoffice works
Calls can be made and incoming calls do ring a group with all users
That is why it looks easy
I see a lot of basic thing done wrong by very experienced guys (probably because they only do the advanced applications)
I think you did a nice job yourself by the way
ACA - Implement IP Office
ACS - Implement IP Office
ACA - Voice Services Management
______________
Women and cats can do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea!
If you do not know those rules it is easy to mesh up the whole system
When the simple config becomes a complicated config then most is/it managers are getting stuck
That is no attack to is/it manager but it is a different kind of work
Out of the box an ipoffice works
Calls can be made and incoming calls do ring a group with all users
That is why it looks easy
I see a lot of basic thing done wrong by very experienced guys (probably because they only do the advanced applications)
I think you did a nice job yourself by the way
ACA - Implement IP Office
ACS - Implement IP Office
ACA - Voice Services Management
______________
Women and cats can do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea!
codermonkey
IS-IT--Management
Thanks tlpeter,
Maybe I made it sould like I don't appriciate what you guys do; that was not my intention. The hardest thing is to remote into somone's system, who says "It don't work" and try to figure it out, when its clear it was something they screwed up. You really earn your money then, and definately gotta know your stuff.
You're right my setup is pretty simply, not quite default 16 POTS, 6 VOIP, 30 users, 4 hunt groups, two outbound rules. So figuring it out was not difficult. The only thing that really got me, was having the pre PCS07 model, and not being able to upgrade it. But got there eventually.
Maybe I made it sould like I don't appriciate what you guys do; that was not my intention. The hardest thing is to remote into somone's system, who says "It don't work" and try to figure it out, when its clear it was something they screwed up. You really earn your money then, and definately gotta know your stuff.
You're right my setup is pretty simply, not quite default
16 POTS, 6 VOIP, 30 users, 4 hunt groups, two outbound rules. So figuring it out was not difficult. The only thing that really got me, was having the pre PCS07 model, and not being able to upgrade it. But got there eventually.- Thread starter
- #12
codermonkey,
You are not the typical poster on this forum. You bought your equipment on the gray market(unauthorized), and therefore did not purchase the right to technical support/warranty from Avaya. That is what a BP's (PA)Product Authorized Tech gets via going through an authorized avaya channel, support/warranty.
Is the way you got your equipment authorized by Avaya to be sold by its BP's, or distributors, I will let you guess. Does Avaya have to upgrade equipment bought on the gray market contractually, I will let you guess. Does Avaya contractually have to give technical or warranty support for equipment bought on the gray market, I will let you guess. You got lucky, and probably someone along the lines violated their BP agreement to get your equipment upgraded/replaced.
You however knew you were purchasing on the gray market, and the situation you were putting yourself, and your company in, and if you did not know then shame on you buyer beware you should have known, too bad. I am not saying that to be mean, but it is just the reality of the situation, not a rip, or flaming you. You wisely came here for tech support since you did not purchase the right to warranty, or support in the fashion you purchaed, but you did not decieve anyone by acting like you were providing professional services for a system you had the right to implement, service, and support through legitimate means, and with proper PA's. You would also understand if you had to pay for the new upgraded hardware because you bought it on the gray market which is not obligated by Avaya to upgrade the equipment. You understand that only equipment purchased through, and implemented by properly PA techs actually qualifies for Avaya support, and warranty services, so you would likely not whine if you had to pay for support, upgraded hardware, etc. You knew the risks, you took them, and you are not a cry baby after the fact. You are also not representing yourself as a PA tech, or an authorised channel to end customers taking business from those of us who are, and trashing the IPO reputation.
You are not the typical poster on this forum. You bought your equipment on the gray market(unauthorized), and therefore did not purchase the right to technical support/warranty from Avaya. That is what a BP's (PA)Product Authorized Tech gets via going through an authorized avaya channel, support/warranty.
Is the way you got your equipment authorized by Avaya to be sold by its BP's, or distributors, I will let you guess. Does Avaya have to upgrade equipment bought on the gray market contractually, I will let you guess. Does Avaya contractually have to give technical or warranty support for equipment bought on the gray market, I will let you guess. You got lucky, and probably someone along the lines violated their BP agreement to get your equipment upgraded/replaced.
You however knew you were purchasing on the gray market, and the situation you were putting yourself, and your company in, and if you did not know then shame on you buyer beware you should have known, too bad. I am not saying that to be mean, but it is just the reality of the situation, not a rip, or flaming you. You wisely came here for tech support since you did not purchase the right to warranty, or support in the fashion you purchaed, but you did not decieve anyone by acting like you were providing professional services for a system you had the right to implement, service, and support through legitimate means, and with proper PA's. You would also understand if you had to pay for the new upgraded hardware because you bought it on the gray market which is not obligated by Avaya to upgrade the equipment. You understand that only equipment purchased through, and implemented by properly PA techs actually qualifies for Avaya support, and warranty services, so you would likely not whine if you had to pay for support, upgraded hardware, etc. You knew the risks, you took them, and you are not a cry baby after the fact. You are also not representing yourself as a PA tech, or an authorised channel to end customers taking business from those of us who are, and trashing the IPO reputation.
- Thread starter
- #15
aarenot, he can download it from the support site. Anyone can get it. If he can do it, or any end user for that matter, that's great. I have a problem with anyone who bashes the the product because it's not working right because of self inflicted wounds.
Now bashing it because of stuff AVAYA causes, that's another matter.
Now bashing it because of stuff AVAYA causes, that's another matter.
- Thread starter
- #17
- Thread starter
- #18
Let's look at the bright side of all this, I would rather a company get an avaya phone system through the grey market than any other brand because the more avaya's out their the better I like it. It keeps the BP in business in the long run.
Just my 2 cents worth.
"The lack of money is the root of all evil"![[machinegun]](/data/assets/smilies/machinegun.gif "[machinegun] [machinegun]")
![[flip]](/data/assets/smilies/flip.gif "[flip] [flip]")
Just my 2 cents worth.
"The lack of money is the root of all evil"
This a forum where people don't generally use thier own names. Who is to say who anybody really is. aarenot, there is another type of poster, the ones who are vendors and don't say they are.
Come on, look at the posts on this forum, is this really a place where the best are meeting to open an exchange about high level issues? No, alot of the time its about how do I make intercom work.
Flat out there should be an authorized vendor only forum. That would solve all of this.
Come on, look at the posts on this forum, is this really a place where the best are meeting to open an exchange about high level issues? No, alot of the time its about how do I make intercom work.
Flat out there should be an authorized vendor only forum. That would solve all of this.
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