Seems like the number of poor implementors is surging up again, or is that just my impression? Is it more BP's getting into IPO without training maybe, or what do you think it is? Am I the only one who seems to see this trend? Has Avaya dropped the two implement PA techs requirement for a BP to implement the IPO, or just not enforcing it?
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Is there a new surge of IPO implementors/Sellers? 2
- Thread starter aarenot
- Start date
bigblock454
MIS
Just my .02, since most everyone here knows me, I am an end user/administrator who was thrown into an IPO against my will. I had NO CHOICE inthe matter, and was even told that "I wouldn't be allowed into the system until the warranty was up" by my BP because I might "screw it up". They didn't configure it correctly, didn't have 2 certified techs when they sold it to us, have barely supported it, contrary to their opinion of themselves, and if not for this forum I would be in a small windowless room with rubber walls. A week ago one site was down to 1 total voice circuit. When I called the BP I was basically told to troubleshoot it myself, your users must be using every circuit. But they weren't. The config blew up for no apparent reason, and a piece of hardware had to be replaced. The BP was saying things like "I've never seen anything like this" and "It doesn't make sense". How that for inspiring confidence? So some of us have no other realistic place to go for answers but here, and believe me, I appreciate it ALOT. But I have little to contribute, I am "still an egg" so to speak...the former 573dawn
crumthwacket
Vendor
You've seen the movie "Jurassic Park" - life will find a way? - and so it is with popular products. There are ethically-challenged dealers (and worse - distributors) who will sell product to any and all comers (sometimes with a wink from the manufacturer). In that scenario, everyone except the dealer, and perhaps the end-user, wins. This is true of ALL product.
On top of all that, Avaya is actively adding dealers for the SMBS line.
The solution appears to be obvious, which is to increase our fees for professional services (implementation, training, repairs, on-going maintenance - assuming we know what we're doing.
There is no point in ranting about this. We can, of course, complain to one another - misery loves company - but we may be better off providing these professional services. Product sales are capital-intensive anyway, and the best part could be the decline in sales/marketing types.
Geez: I'm beginning to sound a pro-Nafta! OMG! Take me away!
On top of all that, Avaya is actively adding dealers for the SMBS line.
The solution appears to be obvious, which is to increase our fees for professional services (implementation, training, repairs, on-going maintenance - assuming we know what we're doing.
There is no point in ranting about this. We can, of course, complain to one another - misery loves company - but we may be better off providing these professional services. Product sales are capital-intensive anyway, and the best part could be the decline in sales/marketing types.
Geez: I'm beginning to sound a pro-Nafta! OMG! Take me away!
- Thread starter
- #23
dawn,
I would say we exposed your BP as a poser, well you probably already knew that. I hope we tried to find you adequate support to keep you from going loco, I know we tried to help? You situation where there are no other local BP's, or techs, and where you were taken advantage of by in what in my experience, and opinion seems to be the norm, dishonest POSER BP's implementing the IPO without PA's.
Ron,
You may be right about the vendors, but they are either PA's, or POSERS either way. I do want to say though, I would refer a customer to you in your area, you are no poser. Also sun dance has the high level stuff if that is what you want. They do however have the lower level stuff as well.
I would say we exposed your BP as a poser, well you probably already knew that. I hope we tried to find you adequate support to keep you from going loco, I know we tried to help? You situation where there are no other local BP's, or techs, and where you were taken advantage of by in what in my experience, and opinion seems to be the norm, dishonest POSER BP's implementing the IPO without PA's.
Ron,
You may be right about the vendors, but they are either PA's, or POSERS either way. I do want to say though, I would refer a customer to you in your area, you are no poser. Also sun dance has the high level stuff if that is what you want. They do however have the lower level stuff as well.
codermonkey
IS-IT--Management
Finally had a weekend away 
Now back to the usual.
406 UPGRADE - Ronromaro and aarenot, that was an interesting situation. After numerous calls to Avaya, someone quite high up, got fed up with hearing my voice, and authorised a hardware replacememnt. Now that I know a lot more about the world of authorised dealers, I understand, however at the time it was a little different. I know for all of you it is normal, and accepted however please step outside of your roles and look at this objectively. I had a piece of hardware that was "faulty" because it was subject to a free manufacturer's replacememnt. I could not understand why I could not get such a replacement, just becuase I did not purchase from a dealer. Like someone pointed out, the flash upgrades are free.
THE REAL POINT - My original point was a little missed. I did not really want people to concentrate on what I did, because I understand that I'm a little different, and I went into this with my eyes (almost) wide open. My point is: I could now quite easly pose as a BP. I could purchase the harware on the net, relatively cheap, and undercut pretty much anyone when offering an install and support. My point: Its too easy to purchase the equipment, when you're not authorised.
Now back to the usual.406 UPGRADE - Ronromaro and aarenot, that was an interesting situation. After numerous calls to Avaya, someone quite high up, got fed up with hearing my voice, and authorised a hardware replacememnt. Now that I know a lot more about the world of authorised dealers, I understand, however at the time it was a little different. I know for all of you it is normal, and accepted however please step outside of your roles and look at this objectively. I had a piece of hardware that was "faulty" because it was subject to a free manufacturer's replacememnt. I could not understand why I could not get such a replacement, just becuase I did not purchase from a dealer. Like someone pointed out, the flash upgrades are free.
THE REAL POINT - My original point was a little missed. I did not really want people to concentrate on what I did, because I understand that I'm a little different, and I went into this with my eyes (almost) wide open. My point is: I could now quite easly pose as a BP. I could purchase the harware on the net, relatively cheap, and undercut pretty much anyone when offering an install and support. My point: Its too easy to purchase the equipment, when you're not authorised.
How many times at Avaya Engineer forums have we all asked Avaya staff to put the Avaya Support Web behind a password. If memory serves, that is how it was with the INdeX. Put it back on the Business Partner site.
As far as people buying grey kit. Ebay and the general has alot to answer for!!!! How many times have you heard "but I can get those phones for far less myself" and then log a fault with us because the IP Phones they bought don't work!!
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
As far as people buying grey kit. Ebay and the general has alot to answer for!!!! How many times have you heard "but I can get those phones for far less myself" and then log a fault with us because the IP Phones they bought don't work!!
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
- Thread starter
- #26
I have a suggestion for Avaya. Add a field to the IPO CFG's that requires a PA tech to enter their PA tech mumber, and a password. The field would not disable the IPO, but would be required for support, or warranty registration.
At the very least it would reduce the amount of support that distributors, and Avaya would have to give out thus reducing support costs, and valid tech waiting in the Q time. I would venture a guess that Avaya would have half of the people calling in for support currently, as well as their distributors no longer be an expense to support.
Also, a PA should put you in the front of the line for tech support in front of everyone who does not have one, period. If you did not have a PA do it, then you can wait in Q, for all PA escalations to be completed, or for a call back until all the PA's are helped first. There should be an advantage to being properly authorized to actually implement the damb thing, like getting support before the guys that do not get their PA's.
At the very least it would reduce the amount of support that distributors, and Avaya would have to give out thus reducing support costs, and valid tech waiting in the Q time. I would venture a guess that Avaya would have half of the people calling in for support currently, as well as their distributors no longer be an expense to support.
Also, a PA should put you in the front of the line for tech support in front of everyone who does not have one, period. If you did not have a PA do it, then you can wait in Q, for all PA escalations to be completed, or for a call back until all the PA's are helped first. There should be an advantage to being properly authorized to actually implement the damb thing, like getting support before the guys that do not get their PA's.
When I passed my INDeX courses I got a Registered Engineer card and an ID number. Without this I could not log a call with Lucent (Avaya@Welwyn Garden City).
They used to do it in the UK, why not do it again!!!!
Only problems with this is good Techs starting up. 2 PA Sales and 2 PA Techs to get BP status is not easy to reach when you are starting a new business so a little grace should be allowed.
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
They used to do it in the UK, why not do it again!!!!
Only problems with this is good Techs starting up. 2 PA Sales and 2 PA Techs to get BP status is not easy to reach when you are starting a new business so a little grace should be allowed.
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
- Thread starter
- #28
jamie,
I got my PA's for IPO, VMPRO, CCC without ever having done any IPO duties sinply by studying the PDF's. I had the chance to play with a system for a couple hours prior to taking my PA tests, and passed first try. It is not that hard to get them if you take the time to study, and besides that the BP should be sending two techs to Avaya course for the IPO PA's before they even consider going live offering in house IPO implementation. They can sell it after getting the sales PA's, and outsource the implement to PA techs. Then after having a few in the field with outsourced techs, they can send some inside guys to get their PA's.
If they can not afford this they should just stay out of the IPO mnarket for services, period.
I got my PA's for IPO, VMPRO, CCC without ever having done any IPO duties sinply by studying the PDF's. I had the chance to play with a system for a couple hours prior to taking my PA tests, and passed first try. It is not that hard to get them if you take the time to study, and besides that the BP should be sending two techs to Avaya course for the IPO PA's before they even consider going live offering in house IPO implementation. They can sell it after getting the sales PA's, and outsource the implement to PA techs. Then after having a few in the field with outsourced techs, they can send some inside guys to get their PA's.
If they can not afford this they should just stay out of the IPO mnarket for services, period.
I'm trying to figure out if some of the responses to this post is shallow business thinking or arrogance.
Quick question for you? What does an end users "nightmare" install have to do w/ 2 PA's? Any monkey can pass a course. You could have 10 PA's, does it mean you know the product. Maybe end users should do more backround checks on the BP's to make sure who they are hiring has a clue what they are doing. I do not equate PA's to good tech's or good BP's.
Figure it out damn-it!
Quick question for you? What does an end users "nightmare" install have to do w/ 2 PA's? Any monkey can pass a course. You could have 10 PA's, does it mean you know the product. Maybe end users should do more backround checks on the BP's to make sure who they are hiring has a clue what they are doing. I do not equate PA's to good tech's or good BP's.
Figure it out damn-it!
Courses do not make a good engineer in any profession. Experience and the personal need to go the extra mile. I have known engineers with all the exams under the sun to his name but are rubbish as engineers!!!
I agree that PA techs should get better response to Tech Support than people that don't have it but it is not the be all and end all.
I would like to see an end to the "grey market" though. It's too easy for end users to get kit at the same price we buy it from our distributor for. After all we are here to make money and our margins are getting torn to shreds by things like this.
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
I agree that PA techs should get better response to Tech Support than people that don't have it but it is not the be all and end all.
I would like to see an end to the "grey market" though. It's too easy for end users to get kit at the same price we buy it from our distributor for. After all we are here to make money and our margins are getting torn to shreds by things like this.
Jamie Green
ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office
Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
I agree 100% w/ the grey market. What about BP's who will "give" it away to get the sale. At what point below NPL is OK to sell at. What is the margin to uphold too. I run into a lot BP's who will give it away cause they know maintenece or something is on the backend.
Figure it out damn-it!
Figure it out damn-it!
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1
- #32
There once was a steamship Captain that loved his ship. He knew every nuance of sound and feel of the ship. One day, when returning to port, he noticed she made a strange sound and the engine was not running as smooth as it has always been. He ran down and listened intently. With the help of his chief engineer, they tinkered and twisted with every valve, and flipped every switch on the engine but the sound got worse and the engine ran even more roughly.
When they pulled into port the Captain called the finest steamship repairman in to fix his beloved ship. The steamship repairman went straight to the engine room and went to work. He put his small bag of tool on the floor. He stood in the middle of the room and listened to the struggling engine. After a few minutes he reached into his bag and produced a hammer.
The repairman walked to the back of the engine room and made his way thru a twist of pipes and wires to a small pipe that ran the length of the boiler. With a precise, firm whack he struck the pipe. And with that the engine purred like a kitten.
I will send you a bill the repairman said.
A few days later the Captain received the bill: “$500 dollars for services rendered”
The Captain was flabbergasted, “$500 for a few minutes work?”
He called the repairman to complain.
“I will send you a new bill” replied the repairman.
A few days after that, the Captain got the new bill: “50¢ for tapping on pipe, $499.50 for knowing where to tap.
When they pulled into port the Captain called the finest steamship repairman in to fix his beloved ship. The steamship repairman went straight to the engine room and went to work. He put his small bag of tool on the floor. He stood in the middle of the room and listened to the struggling engine. After a few minutes he reached into his bag and produced a hammer.
The repairman walked to the back of the engine room and made his way thru a twist of pipes and wires to a small pipe that ran the length of the boiler. With a precise, firm whack he struck the pipe. And with that the engine purred like a kitten.
I will send you a bill the repairman said.
A few days later the Captain received the bill: “$500 dollars for services rendered”
The Captain was flabbergasted, “$500 for a few minutes work?”
He called the repairman to complain.
“I will send you a new bill” replied the repairman.
A few days after that, the Captain got the new bill: “50¢ for tapping on pipe, $499.50 for knowing where to tap.
- Thread starter
- #34
shine,
Just because having some standard does not make sure that every tech will be top notch is no argument for not having some level or standard of training to ensure at least some level of training to implement the systems.
If you define a good tech as someone who follows the Avaya recomended path in order to have the credentials to install, and service the IPO then yes the PA is the minimal requirement for the tech.
If you define a good BP as one who meets their contractual obligations in order to provide sales (2 PA sales employees onn staff), and technical services(2 PA techs implement on staff) on the IPO then I would have to agree. I am not saying that this is the end all, and be all of my definition, but in my opinion you are not going to get to the level of GOOD without these minimums. Let alone honest since your BP staus agrees to this requirement, and it is in my opinion fraud to be doing this without them.
Sorry if you want to argue that you do not need the PA's to be a good tech, or a good BP. At least for the BP part if honesty is required, then you do need them to be a good BP. As far as the tech, if you are good, getting the PA's is not hard enough to be an excuse for not having them.
Just because having some standard does not make sure that every tech will be top notch is no argument for not having some level or standard of training to ensure at least some level of training to implement the systems.
If you define a good tech as someone who follows the Avaya recomended path in order to have the credentials to install, and service the IPO then yes the PA is the minimal requirement for the tech.
If you define a good BP as one who meets their contractual obligations in order to provide sales (2 PA sales employees onn staff), and technical services(2 PA techs implement on staff) on the IPO then I would have to agree. I am not saying that this is the end all, and be all of my definition, but in my opinion you are not going to get to the level of GOOD without these minimums. Let alone honest since your BP staus agrees to this requirement, and it is in my opinion fraud to be doing this without them.
Sorry if you want to argue that you do not need the PA's to be a good tech, or a good BP. At least for the BP part if honesty is required, then you do need them to be a good BP. As far as the tech, if you are good, getting the PA's is not hard enough to be an excuse for not having them.
I was trying to argue that there is no gurantee when dealing w/ a "certified" BP, that everything will be smooth. I agree w/ having to maintain a level of certs in order to sell something. I also no plenty of techs, who are certifed IPO guys, but not BP's. I also no IPO cert techs who have branched out on their own became a BP, but do not have the 2 tech and 2 sales required certs. They do as good a work as you can find, but just because they don't have a 4 man staff or something shouldn't prohibit them from being able to sell.
Was also just rying to point out that if a customer is "duped" into some BP's sell BS, then shame on them for not doing their homework to find out if they do good work.
Figure it out damn-it!
Was also just rying to point out that if a customer is "duped" into some BP's sell BS, then shame on them for not doing their homework to find out if they do good work.
Figure it out damn-it!
- Thread starter
- #36
shine,
I do see your points.
The two people at a BP that possess the sales PA's can be the same ones who have the tech PA's(If you can get the tech, the sales is another hours work). That reduces the number of employees to two required. I do believe that two techs requirement should be in place, but should also be allowed to be outsourced if they have agreements with PA techs to provide services, and are not using non-PA techs to do any IPO services. So if the one man show with a PA can handle ALL the work himself, or subs the excess to a PA guy, no worries.
It is not that hard to find a PA implement tech, and the techs themselves are in charge of where their PA is associated as far as a BP. I had an IPO PA before I ever associated the PA with the BP which employed me. They never paid me for, nor for any of my efforts to obtain my PA's, nor had IPO as part of the duties/job description I was compensated for, so that association was not one that was part of my employment agreement. You can simply have another profile with Avaya University which is not associated with your BP, get the PA, and it is yours to associate as you see fit. I would suggest negotiating for a raise after you get the PA, then when they put that in writing change your profile association, and if not then they do not need the PA association.
I do see your points.
The two people at a BP that possess the sales PA's can be the same ones who have the tech PA's(If you can get the tech, the sales is another hours work). That reduces the number of employees to two required. I do believe that two techs requirement should be in place, but should also be allowed to be outsourced if they have agreements with PA techs to provide services, and are not using non-PA techs to do any IPO services. So if the one man show with a PA can handle ALL the work himself, or subs the excess to a PA guy, no worries.
It is not that hard to find a PA implement tech, and the techs themselves are in charge of where their PA is associated as far as a BP. I had an IPO PA before I ever associated the PA with the BP which employed me. They never paid me for, nor for any of my efforts to obtain my PA's, nor had IPO as part of the duties/job description I was compensated for, so that association was not one that was part of my employment agreement. You can simply have another profile with Avaya University which is not associated with your BP, get the PA, and it is yours to associate as you see fit. I would suggest negotiating for a raise after you get the PA, then when they put that in writing change your profile association, and if not then they do not need the PA association.
dphoneguy24
Technical User
This will be a never ending post...
I agree - the support website should be behind password or on the BP website - user guides and the like could be available to registered users if there were a way BPs could register the customer without having to sell Avaya's maint. We do not sell Avaya's maintenance because we then lose the customer. We either sell or own or none at all.
Our company has sold IPO since GA in the US. As a matter of fact, we were contacted by our distributor about the time when 4.1 was GA and said that Avaya was auditing BPs and that we needed to take action to get current with product authorization or Avaya wouldn't let our dist. sell to us.
This is the first time this has ever happened to us or any other BP that I have talked to. I thought it was good, since I have a couple of our techs that won't get online at Avaya U regularly and update things. I don't think however that Avaya is really enforcing the consequences on BPs that don't stay current.
I agree - the support website should be behind password or on the BP website - user guides and the like could be available to registered users if there were a way BPs could register the customer without having to sell Avaya's maint. We do not sell Avaya's maintenance because we then lose the customer. We either sell or own or none at all.
Our company has sold IPO since GA in the US. As a matter of fact, we were contacted by our distributor about the time when 4.1 was GA and said that Avaya was auditing BPs and that we needed to take action to get current with product authorization or Avaya wouldn't let our dist. sell to us.
This is the first time this has ever happened to us or any other BP that I have talked to. I thought it was good, since I have a couple of our techs that won't get online at Avaya U regularly and update things. I don't think however that Avaya is really enforcing the consequences on BPs that don't stay current.
- Thread starter
- #39
I recently bought an IP Office 500 and its been a total disaster. I'm shocked at how bad the system is--it's buggy, bad voice quality and crashes nearly every two weeks. The avaya was up against Fonalty (open source) and I made the mistake of going with the brand name.
We purchased the system for a "top end" Boston-area dealer (Avaya SMB gold) and I have to say that they are pretty clueless.
I can't wait for three years when this system is fully depreciated and I can throw it in the trash.
We purchased the system for a "top end" Boston-area dealer (Avaya SMB gold) and I have to say that they are pretty clueless.
I can't wait for three years when this system is fully depreciated and I can throw it in the trash.
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