Is Lotus Notes dead ?

[pmonett]

I have been working with Notes as a developer, certified consultant and instructor for more than eight years now.
I have followed the evolution of this amazing product since Release 3, and learned all its quirks and programming practices from Formula language to LotusScript and Java (okay - I'm a bit lacking in Java).
This product has evolved tremendously by integrating many abilities having to do with web development, and all LN developers I know have always cheered Lotus on in this direction.
Yet, for the past year I have noticed a disturbing trend - consultancy companies are using more and Java and Web developers to program in Notes. While I have no issues with the level of competence these people have in their respective fields, I have been placed many times with the responsibility of maintaining and changing applications developed by these kind of developers after the fact. I have also lost a job to a junior Java developer because the management of the company found that I was too expensive.
Well, I can tell you one thing - such applications are not good from a Notes development point of view. There are many things one can do in Notes natively without resorting to complicated code, but if the Web/Java developer does not know what a replica is, how the ACL works, what Author/Reader fields are for, how Inheritance works and what to do with views and forms, then this is a recipe for disaster.
I fear that, ultimately, Lotus has created so many functionalities into its product that many managers (and customers) are starting to think that anybody who can write a VB script can develop a whole Notes application.

Has anyone else noticed this ? What are your horror stories on Notes applications developed by third parties ?

 

[lespaul]

Hello my friend! It's coincidental that you should post this thread. I was recently given a Notes Web app project modification for an app that was developed by a third party. Like you said, it's a NIGHTMARE! Not only is there NO documentation at all, it is impossible to figure out what's happening.

Now I'm the first to admit that you know way more than I do regarding Notes & development, and I'm pretty rusty with my JavaScript/HTML skills, but I do have a basic CLUE. But even our network manager who has WAY more experience in Web development than I do, can't figure this product out. It was finally passed up to the department head and HE can't figure it out either.

And the request that I was given isn't brain surgery. All I was asked to do was to add a JavaScript validation to make sure that at least the first initial of the first name was entered before processing the query. No problem, right? WRONG!! I did actually find the code behind the SUBMIT button and added the new validation, but after the error message was shown and the user tries to enter a first initial, the query doesn't run! So I went back to the beginning, removed the code I entered, and tried to see what happens when a Last Name isn't entered. Sure enough, I get the error message to enter a Last Name, go back to the form, enter it and search again, but the query doesn't run!! The entire form has to be reset in order to re-try the query.

We have tried to get the developer to come and look at it, but apparently there has been some kind of change in THEIR organization and there's no one there who can support the app they built for us!

So, now we are stuck with a program that CANNOT be maintained or modified even though there are basic functional issues that have not worked correctly since THE BEGINNING!

I think part of the problem lies with the fact that it has become really easy to set up a Web Page. You get Front Page or DreamWeaver and you're set to go. Now while you & I know this really isn't all there is to it, I believe that most non-technical people think that it is. Get some basic Javascript for validation and you're done.

Now, I'm not planning on delving into Web Development (unless my boss makes me!), but I do know that one of our newer analysts is looking into WebSphere and we may be doing more in house web development. I know I'll be hunting you down to get the scoop!

Les

 

[onpnt]

just to answer the question, absolutely not!

http://www.lotus.com/products/rnext...7885256C31006E5FB6?OpenDocument&cwesite=notes

_____________________________________________________________________
[sub]You can accomplish anything in life, provided that you do not mind who gets credit.
Harry S. Truman[/sub]

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[dwarfthrower]

Greetings from the dark side ;-)

I'm a domino web developer. Don't get me wrong, I've been around since R3 too, and have developed more than my fair share of Notes apps - I even know what @DDEPoke is for

I just believe that Java and XML are the way forward as far as domino applications moving forward are concerned.

Any application (Web or Notes) can be poorly written, undocumented and a nightmare to maintain. I've encountered plenty of Notes applications that would have taken me less time to rewrite from the ground up than modify as is.

You both make very good points though - Basic web dev skills are easy to pick up, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. But good programming is good programming and if a Java/XML solution is the most elegant and cost efficient way to go then that's what the application should be written in. Once you know a couple of languages, the rest are just syntax and the Domino Java Classes are almost identical to the LotusScript classes (naturally, since they both access the same DLLs). As experienced Notes developers, you shouldn't have any trouble with a logically written and properly commented Java agent.

 

[pmonett]

Of course, dwarfthrower, there isn't any problem with applications that are well-written.
But my point is that I believe it is impossible for someone to write an application that is compatible with the Notes development philosophy (for fault of a better word) if they know nothing about the engine they are writing on.
And yes, onpnt, I know there is R6, I've been working with it for more than 18 months now. There also is an object-oriented COBOL, but is there anyone who is going to say that COBOL is anything but a maintenance language today ?
No, what I fear about Notes is that we are going towards an army of Java developers that say they can code in Notes since Notes accepts Java.
That is like an auto mechanic saying he can fix a jet engine since it accepts fuel.
And with such an army of developers who do not have a clue about what they are working on, we are going to see more and more badly developed applications. And the Java developers are going to blame Notes for it all, and in the end Notes will be locked in a closet and we'll be using Websphere, or even (shudder), Frontpage.
I am starting to believe that I am already a dinosaur, a product of a bygone age who just happens to know how Notes works and how good it is, while a multitude of slick-fingered youngsters think it is crap and write everything in Java or C#.

Do you want to shoot me now, or wait until we get home ?

 

[onpnt]

Hmm. Think the link was a little misunderstood. I wanted to point the success articles out more then v6. I am by far not a lotus developer but have done some. COBOL and RPG is my icing on the cake when I get the chance to use them. I'm by far not an older generation programmer and to my abilities know these high level languages are always going to be in our arsenal of needs and imbedded in development on these systems and packages. However in that aspect your point of the Java programming geeks that will over take the field is perfectly correct and I see it today. Although I see quite a bit of stress do to that also. There are two colleges I frequent and attend in my area that set their PA programs off the iSeries and the foundation the school and I had been involved in for the programs insist COBOL I/II on the green screen be the foundation of your curriculum far before hitting the Java courses and messing with lotus/domino and webSphere. Are we going to have to deal with a bunch of poorly written applications? Well, we deal with windows don't we!

_____________________________________________________________________
[sub]You can accomplish anything in life, provided that you do not mind who gets credit.
Harry S. Truman[/sub]

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[pmonett]

I'm all for the success of Domino, but taking statistics from Lotus on its own success strikes me as using a rather biased opinion. After all, no company ever touts its failures, hmm ?
From market studies that I have seen, Lotus is vying with Outlook on the messaging market, and it is not a clear winner. As for the application department, all too often Lotus is used as mail only "to begin with", and it takes years for someone to whip up enough courage to actually make an important Domino-based app work throughout a company.
In my opinion, either the company decides to use Domino as a strategic asset or not. Those that do will want to have a return on investment, and will make the decision to develop apps and actually use the potential that Domino can bring. I think they will find that Domino can be very useful - to use it is to adopt it.
Those that do not will linger a while, then switch to Outlook since, as far as mail is concerned, Outlook is percieved as easier to use and to maintain (never mind the periodic down time due to viruses, mail and pure network issues).

 

[AnanthaP]

My employers recently migrated from Ccmail to Notes and trained some guys (in house) to develop very basic apps. eg. Telefone list, Help desk logging etc.

Got suck(er)ed into it by some consultants whose parent company "shred" themselves into oblivion.

In my part of the world, this consultant company got taken over by another big fish and the same guy now working for the new company now suggests outlook.

Notes itself looks so different from other e-mail clients. (particularly the replicator part).

Non intutive functions. Try deleting and renaming folders with sub folders. Selecting the folder isn't enough. It must be open but not expanded.

Uses it's own drivers for dial up (makes you dependant on Lotus!?!).

The list is endless.

Great code maybe, but non standard (non windoze standard).

To answer the question, Notes will wither away.

Welcome to the withered world (Borland, Novell, Lotus).

End

 

[jsteph]

my 2 cents:
Our company, and IBM partner, has had Notes for about 6 years. In my opinion, and that of all of our sysadmin's it has chewed up, it is the clunkiest, buggiest, most bloated mess of software we have ever dealt with.

Sorry to be negative, and to pmonnet's comment
"there isn't any problem with [Notes] applications that are well-written"

...y'know, that's like saying Pit-Bulls are really good pets "if they're well trained". Sure that may be true, but it's next to impossible to 'well-train' a pit-bull, and it's next to impossible to write a good Notes app. A bottle of nitro-glycerin is safe to take on a roller-coaster ride--if you're very careful. I think you can see the gist here.

From a user's standpoint, I'd rather send smoke-signals, they'd be more reliable and easier to understand.

I really prayed for Notes when IBM took over and hoped it would be a powerful alternative to the exchange/outlook monster, but in my opinion, it just isn't.
--jsteph

 

[jsteph]

...sorry pmonnet, that 'well-written applications...' comment actually orignated from dwarfthrower, I just mixed it up because you had quoted it..
--jsteph

 

[Gatorajc]

Just an observation from my little world.

It is dying. The only people who seem to say its the way of the future are IBM geeks who hate M$. (No offense, some of them are my best friends.)

People who are unbiased seem to be moving away from Notes.

We currently run it here a large company with over 2000 employees and they are currently looking at something else. Never bothered to ask why not my area.

AJ


If at first you do not succeed, cheat!

 

[justatechie]

My sympathies for anyone having to use Notes. Did that for 4 years.

 

[pmonett]

I've just heard rumors that IBM might officially abandon Notes in the next few years.
Well that clinches it for me, it seems obvious that Notes is going the way of the dodo.
Despite all the negative opinions of Notes, I have been working with it for almost 9 years now, and I am very happy with my experience. I would think that "unbiased" people would see that a mail system that is not riddled with virus weaknesses and other stupidities is a preferable platform, even if the presentation is a bit wierd.
But all discussion on this is soon going to be academic anyway. In a few years, I'll probably find myself in the same position as the COBOL experts. Everyone knows they exist, but nobody's ever seen one.
Here's to being a phantom ! I'm feeling transparent already.

 

[dwarfthrower]

I think the Notes client may well be coming to a natural endpoint in it's life cycle, but I think that the Domino server is just starting to take off as a platform for delivering business applications over the web.

The biggest downfall of Notes is that people have consistently viewed it as "a mail system", when it is much, much more. However, I don't think that such a fat fat-client is long for this world giventhe current climate.

I've just got back from 'The View' Domino 6 Development seminar. One of the sessions was an overview of all the new features in the Notes client, they seemed to me to be playing catch-up with the sort of features us web developers have taken for granted for years. This alone tells me that the Notes client will struggle for feature parity with web browsers even further as web technologies evolve (there's a much bigger userbase pushing the evolution of web technologies). However, when building Domino web apps you get the best of both worlds.

It doesn't take a huge effort to get some skills in Domino web development and making the leap could well be the difference between survival and COBOL-like extinction.

 

[Gatorajc]

pomentt,

You sound like every notes admin/developer that has come through where I work. Its pretty funny. Do they teach this attitude at IBM 101? Don't take that in a bad way. It really is funny.

"virus weaknesses and other stupidities" could not let this one slide. Pretty sure that shot was at Outlook. Now I personally like Notes over Outlook. I don't think "presentation is a bit wierd".

Trying to pass off Notes as having no virus weaknesses is not really true. There are just a lot less for Notes. It is all based on market share. The bigger the share the more viruses.



AJ


If at first you do not succeed, cheat!

 

[unixtechie]

Has anyone had the misfortune of ever having to use Domino.Doc? And if you ever despised Notes, or anything, well step right up to the nightmare of Dom.Doc.

 

[dwarfthrower]

Comparing Notes to Outlook is a pretty futile passtime in my opinion. A bit like comparing a three-course meal to an onion.

 

[manarth]

Ah, but your analogy falls short, dwarfthrower...

an onion has some use

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[pmonett]

Gatorajc :

I don't think Notes is wierd either, but you must admit that a number of people are &quot;put off&quot; by the fact that Notes does not look like Outlook.
I also agree that no mail client is invulnerable. I did not say that Notes was, I said is was not &quot;riddled&quot; with weaknesses. One must admit that Outlook is particularly vulnerable to auto-sending shenanigans, whereas Notes is not and won't be for the foreseeable future (since it is on the way out).
I do not understand why corporations decide to go with a mail client that has been is continually is publicly and repeatedly proven a major risk when other, less vulnerable clients exist.

unixtechie :

Absolutely agree with you on that !

 

[TomKane]

I've used Lotus notes for six years (with two different companies). I'm just a user and not a developer of the software but I think it's great.

You have your mail and the calendar for your appointments all the groupware stuff and you can access the web or you can launch or view your attachments you can view and extract the contents of zip files and we also have our knowlege base and issue tracking system in there as well. Even though my area of expertise (?) lies in another app I think it's fair to say I rely very heavily on Notes and am practically powerless without it.

Besides, what would be an alternative system? I find that with apps that they're either the best system in the world or the worst depending on the current state of it. The thing can sing and dance all year round but it's the worst thing in the world ever when it doesn't work on a given day... Heaven forbid if an app should have a poor implementation....