How much help do we give? 1

[sleipnir214]

An ethical question that I have been pondering is: "What amount of help should we give in Tek-Tips or other similar sites?"

I have been a student of the "Give a man a fish....Teach a man to fish..." school of thought for a long time. But there seems to be a lot of posters in the programming questions fora who, in a well-meaning but shortsighted attempt to help, simply post source code which solves the problem. They may also be trying to garner stars, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have been bothered by this for a while. If you don't explain what your code does, the questioner may or may not be able to make sense of what you have given him.

This also brings to mind the fact that at the beginning of June, a lot of questions posted were obviously school assignments. An example: this one from the c programming forum: thread205-85780

I know the Tek-Tips acceptible use policy is supposed to forbid this [BTW: can anyone tell me where to find that], but it still happens.

Any comments? ______________________________________________________________________
Don't say thanks. Just award stars.
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[BeckahC]

sleipnir214,
Ethically... I would have to say that I tend to ask questions of the person posting before giving answers... perhaps I post suggestions... if I ever did find out my assistance was taken advantage of and turned into something dangerous o usedfor bad, I would feel guilty, but I do try not to respond to any threads I am suspicious of, or am not quite sure about, just in case. I do not really use VB, maybe a little VB scripts on ASP pages... but nothing huge or complicated.. I am mostly a SQL Server DB person, I just have a front end for one of my DBs in ASP.... so I personally feel somewhat secure in the knowledge that I would never be able to do too much "damage" with my advice (Like I know I wouldn't post any replies to threads asking about taking down a DB remotely, etc...) BeckahC

 

[sleipnir214]

butchrecon, I think I can state with certainty and little fear of contradiction that CajunCenturion, petermeachem, Koldark, and I all think that killing that thread before DavidDude got his answer was a good thing. After all, the guy did openly admit he was trying to get advice on how to write a trojan horse.

I'm not sure of the source of your confusion. Is it that you didn't see we agree killing the thread is a good thing, or that you don't agree killing the thread was a good thing?


BeckahC, you are at the core of the current discussion. My original post ask the question of how to answer a post. The thread has metamorphosed into the question of what to answer. Almost certainly a better question. [I said, "almost", CajunCenturion]

There are questions, both in the fora and elsewhere, where your ethical obligations are easy to deduce. Those questions are the ones at the ends of the continuum. It's the nasty ones in the middle that can keep you up at night.

I think that it is through discussion of ethics in the grey area that one can build up one's ethical "muscles" or "vision". Those muscles could be the only thing to keep you from making a decision you would feel guilty about later.

And, I know I spend more time thinking about the posts in this forum than in all the rest of my subscribed fora combined. ______________________________________________________________________
My God! It's full of stars!
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[CajunCenturion]

sleipner214

And, I know I spend more time thinking about the posts in this forum than in all the rest of my subscribed fora combined.

Could it be the reason for that is your foundation, or lack thereof, with respect to ethics???

:-D(just kidding):-D
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sleipnir214]

Could be.

I had a college professor remind me once that a 1-credit-hour class in computer ethics was a requirement of graduation.

He said, "I don't know why you'd have to sit through it. You could probably teach the class."

Then he added darkly, "Of course, that would be like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse."

I answered, "Come on, Doc. No one is ever completely useless. He can always serve as a bad example." ______________________________________________________________________
My God! It's full of stars!
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[butchrecon]

sleipnir214,
My confusion came from "I'll bet a cop is just as willing to arrest a dumb crook as a smart one". I am a well educated guy. But sometimes I jts dont understand. Mt "smarts" is more technical and the there are times when the non-technical things just fly WAY over my head.
As for the post about DavidDude, I agree 100% with the removal of his post. It was just a lousy post to help him screw up other users systems. Bad Idea. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[CajunCenturion]

butchrecon
What sleipner214 was trying to say is that it was dumb of DavidDude to freely and opening admin that he was trying to build a TrojanHorse. If he were smart, he would've phrased the question, and his answer in such a way as to shield his real intentions.

But it really doesn't matter, because law enforcement officials don't care how dumb or smart you are, they will do their job, and arrest you if you break the law.

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How ironic is it that DavidDude's honesty (a good ethical trait) got his TrojanHorse (an unethical act) thread deleted? Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sleipnir214]

I think in this instance, there is not enough evidence to decide whether DavidDude was honest, amazingly naive, just plain dumb. (The three not being mutually exclusive, either.)

Is there a difference between ethical behavior and randomly doing the right thing from time to time?

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My God! It's full of stars!
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[BeckahC]

sleipmir,
That is an interesting question... does it matter if you do the "right" thing by accident or on purpose? Or, if you do one or 2 "right" things before and/or after doing a whole bunch of "wrong" things, should your ethics be questioned on the right things as well? Also, if someone does a good, ethical thing, but is really only doing so to help his or herself, is that still considered an ethical act?

If there is a person leading a generally ethical lifestyle and proceeds to make 1 or 2 mistakes, would that person then no longer be considered etical because of a couple of errors in judgement?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have no answers at all, but it is interesting to listen to and consider the questions BeckahC

 

[CajunCenturion]

Yes it does matter if you do the right thing by accident or on purpose. Whether your action is right or wrong cannot be used to determine whether that act is moral or ethical.

The rules of moral conduct are determined by the society over time to define that which is right and wrong. The Latin word "mos" is the root of moral, and means "custom." And it is the society which establishes the moral standards or moral customs.

Ethics on the other hand, comes from the Greek work "ethos" which means "character". Ethics is the standard by which you, as an individual, apply the rules of moral conduct to govern your behavior. An act would be considered eithical if the reasons for your action are consistent with the moral rules of the society.

Therefore, it is unethical to do the right thing for all the wrong reasons, because the rationale behind the action in wrong. It just turned out right by accident. Conversely, if you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, that act would be considered ethical because it is based on a justifyable application of the moral rules. It just happened to turn out wrong.

And to quote Dennis Miller "That's my opionion, but I could be wrong" (but not necessarily unethical) Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Kspade]

When it comes to Ethics there are so many fine lines, it is often difficult to tell when one has been crossed. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

 

[sleipnir214]

CajunCenturion, your definitions aren't bad. I don't espouse them, but they are workable. But I disagree completely with your requirement of intent.

How am I to judge the ethicality of an anonymous act?

And what is your take on the adage, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", given the framework you've described above? ______________________________________________________________________
Never forget that we are
made of the stuff of stars

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think I need to clarify what I mean by "intent." As I stated earlier, "An act would be considered eithical if the reasons for your action are consistent with the moral rules of the society". Therefore, if your intent is to be consistent with the prevailing social mores, then your action would considered ethical, regardless of the outcome. In other words, the desired outcome of your actions is not the basis upon with ethicality is determined. What makes an act ethical/unethical is not the act itself, but the reasons by which you chose to perform that act. Its not what you did, but why you did it.

How can you judge the ethicality of an anonymous act? You can't. Without knowing the true motivations behind the actor, you cannot say whether that person was acting ethicaly, or for some other enlightened self-interest.

As far as the road to hell: Life happens, bad things happen to good people. We've all at one time or another, done all the right things for all the right reasons, and ended up in a disaster. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein