How much help do we give? 1

[sleipnir214]

An ethical question that I have been pondering is: "What amount of help should we give in Tek-Tips or other similar sites?"

I have been a student of the "Give a man a fish....Teach a man to fish..." school of thought for a long time. But there seems to be a lot of posters in the programming questions fora who, in a well-meaning but shortsighted attempt to help, simply post source code which solves the problem. They may also be trying to garner stars, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have been bothered by this for a while. If you don't explain what your code does, the questioner may or may not be able to make sense of what you have given him.

This also brings to mind the fact that at the beginning of June, a lot of questions posted were obviously school assignments. An example: this one from the c programming forum: thread205-85780

I know the Tek-Tips acceptible use policy is supposed to forbid this [BTW: can anyone tell me where to find that], but it still happens.

Any comments? ______________________________________________________________________
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[CajunCenturion]

Good question, and to continue with it, what should you do in response to a question if you suspect that the usage of the question may be for inappropriate use. For example, if you, by the nature of the question, suspect that someone may be trying to develop a virus?

I'm not sure that it would be appropriate to red flag a question based on your suspisions alone.

If you do red flag a post, then you will see examples of the types of post that are inappropriate, and homework is contained in that list.

Obviously you have to use your judgement, but what are the criteria that you use in deciding whether or not to respond to a post, if you do know the answer?

One thing I try to do is explain the algorythm so that others understand what I'm trying to do, and how to do it, but as we all know from experience - there is nothing better then working code as a guide. I think that's why most manuals do include sample code.

I am careful not show a snippet of code that would or could divulge any trade secrets and in any way compromise the project from which that snippet came.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Schroeder]

I think the notion that it's irresponsible or unethical to post a code-only solution or even the answer to someone's homework inappropriately shifts responsiblity away from the person asking the question. I suppose you could argue that handing out fish will eventually clog the forum with people that should instead be out there baiting their own hooks but I see that as a real stretch. You have no intrinsic responsibility to teach folks how to program. If you enjoy such undertakings then more power to you. If the person asking the question receives only code for a response, it's their responsibility to ask for clarification if they want or need it.
Although I admit that if I knew that someone was asking me to do their homework for them I'd probably turn them down, I'm not going to lose sleep over the chance that I have done so in the past. They're the ones paying large sums of money to learn the material. It may be trite but "they're only cheating themselves". Once again, if you wanted to reach for straws, you could say aiding a cheater will undermine the status of a BCS degree.
Helping a potential virus author goes along the same lines. Although I can definitely say I would not knowingly do that, without conclusive proof, I feel that you have to give the person the benefit of the doubt. I would be unhappy if my question about a client/server app went unanswered just because I inadvertantly worded it in such a way as to make it look like I was writing a Trojan Horse. When these suspect posts appear, I often see people inquiring as to the purpose of the project. I suppose that's as good a solution as any.

 

[sleipnir214]

So what you're saying is that if the antivirus vendors post notification that a new virus has been found in the wild, one that has a nastily destructive payload, and the only evidence of the identity of it's creator in the source code is, "Thanks Shroeder at Tek-Tips! Your advice was the last piece I needed", then you would sleep fine that night?

Is the purpose of Tek-Tips to hand out data by solving someone's problem for him, or is the purpose of Tek-Tips to impart knowledge by teaching him how to solve the problem himself? ______________________________________________________________________
Don't say thanks. Just award stars.
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[svanels]

"They're the ones paying large sums of money to learn the material."

Correction: They are not paying to learn, they are paying to get the work done by someone else.

Posting a lot of code without explanation doesn't receive attention in most programmers forum's.

In most cases I post a snippet of code to guide the asker.

About the Virus note "Thanks Shroeder at Tek-Tips! Your advice was the last piece I needed", why not "thanks Bill Gates" or "thanks IBM", or "thanks dad for buying me a computer".

Everybody is responsible for his own development (although some do not have the tools or money to aquire it).

An excellent place tho put in a long piece of code is the FAQ area in all the forums.

About the discussion of how much knowledge are you willing or must share: put yourself in a supervisory role in any bussiness. Holding information to yourself indicates fear, and you will be doing always other people work, in the worst case your subordinates will bring their work for you to do also.

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[JazzGeek]

Frankly speaking, keep your explantions to yourself.
Why in the world would you teach others to take over your job? Pretty soon, you will be making $$$ that your boss knows it too much and they will hire the person you taught. It happens everyday, everywhere. Teach it: lost it. Sad, but true.

Keep your genius to yourself and reap the benefits. I know a 17 year old girl who can out program just about any programmer I know, and .NET is her speciality. Good luck keeping your job when she applies for it.

 

[sleipnir214]

JazzGeek, you forget two of the axioms of teaching.

The first is, "The best way to learn something is to teach it." I learn new things because of every post I submit to the fora.


The second is, "Sharing of knowledge is not a zero-sum game." The fact that I have imparted some of my knowledge to another does not imply I have lost anything.


And I'll happily go up against your talented 17-year-old friend. Just because you are impressed by her skills doesn't carry much weight with me. Anyway, where I work is not a Microsoft shop, so much of her skill set does not apply. .Net, or more importantly the protocols on which it is based, is a good idea. But it is not the alpha and omega of programming methodologies, despite what Microsoft's marketing department has to say. Until the technology proves its usability, ".Net" is still just a buzzword. You do realize, too, that she is building skills in a technology that has no release-version software published in it, right?

Besides, old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.[evilgrin] She may be a talented programmer. But there is much to be said for grey hair. And I've been programming longer than she has been alive.
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[Schroeder]

What I'm saying is, I'm not going to lose sleep over the extremely remote possiblity of that happening. Or even the possibility that, publicized or not, I unwittingly played an integral role in the development of a new virus.
More to the point, I'm talking about "innocent until proven guilty". It's unfair to jump to conclusions even when there's a real possibility that they're true. My opinion here is not necessarily the perfect solution to such sticky issues but as you can, no doubt, tell I have certain leanings when it comes to these matters and I'll tend to err in accord with those leanings.
I see no point in trying to divine a purpose to the forum other than to provide a means of communication between people with common interests. Like I said, if the person asking the question doesn't like or understand the answer they receive, they're free to ask for clarification.

svanels, I don't understand your correction.

I don't agree with JazzGeek. I think worrying about your student replacing you is taking a narrow view of the situation. If you can teach others your skills, you're that much more valuable to your organization. Even if your superiors fail to recognize your contributions (which probably means you should be looking to move on), presumably you're at least staying ahead of the pack.

I'm not necessarily advocating the posting of unexplained answers. I just don't consider it to be an issue of obligation, moral or otherwise. I should point out that, particularly in regards to the homework issue, I have no problem respecting the wishes of the hosts of this forum. If there's a policy regarding helping folks with their homework or even posting code-only answers, that takes precedence over my personal opinions. If I disagree strongly enough, I'll start my own forum.

 

[svanels]

Schroeder if somebody pays to get his homework done, he will never learn something, the next step is to pay somebody to get his exam done.

If you can teach others your skills, you're that much more valuable to your organization.
You got it right Schroeder, because you will have time to go further. By the way I don't work in a software company, but we had an engineer who is the same narrow minded as JazzGeek, he changed because if we had slight indication of problem, he was called. Our preferred time was 03:00 am or in weekends. Actually some where waiting for him to leave the plant to call him back. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[sleipnir214]

I think we all have an ethical responsibility for the uses put to our advice. But the question is, how responsible are we?

I think that everyone would agree that if I possess the knowledge to make an atomic bomb, and I hand out that information indescriminately, then I am responsible at least in part if someone misuses my learning by blowing up a city. In that extreme case, I probably have not only an ethical responsibility but a legal one. If it can be proved that the terrorist used knowledge he got from me, I'll likely go to jail.

If I am one of a few dozen people on the planet who know that a certain obscure poison is undetectible, odorless, colorless, tastless and kills instantly, and I share this knowledge with someone who uses it to murder his roommate, then my ethical responsibility is less. I contributed to the death of a single person, not of 100,000 deaths.

Now, let's set the "damage" dial to "medium" and look at another axis of extreme. Availability of information.

I work for Microsoft and am the only one on the planet who knows about an undocumented system call in Windows XP. I know about it because I put it there and managed to guard it against code reviews until Windows XP was published. This system call allows you to delete any file on the machine, whether a system file or not, and whether the file is already open or not.

Someone begins asking about how to delete an open system file on a forum. I offer my undocumented system call, and find out a week later that it is used in the payload of a vicious virus.

Now, how much ethical responsibility to I have? Probably a good bit.

But if someone asks me how to fire a revolver and I answer, "That's easy. Pull back the hammer until it locks. Aim at your target. Slowly sqeeze the trigger" and that information is used by someone to kill his roommate, my ethical responsibility is less. I handed out information that millions know.


As I see it, the ethical responsibility of information given anywhere has at least 2 axes: Potential damage which the information can cause and availability of the information. And our ethical responsibility in sharing knowledge seems to be directly proportional to how much damage our knowledge can cause, and indirectly proportional to the availability of the knowledge.

Are there additional axes in this continuum?

I understand that none of us are likely to be willing to learn enough deontic logic to figure out the n-dimensional function defining our ethical responsibilities. But at least knowing the axes of potential responsibility gives us the metrics necessary to analyze our ethical positions. ______________________________________________________________________
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[CajunCenturion]

A couple of discussion points

If you believe that handing out the information indiscriminately to build an atomic bomb, that is later used in a terrorist act puts ethical responsibility on you, then do you also feel that the flight instructors who were paid to teach the terrorist how to fly share in the ethical responsibility of the terrorist act? Does the act of paying for that information relieve you of responsibility, or the payment solve the indiscriminate issue? Or perhaps we need to define indiscriminately in terms of this context.

Does the manufacturer, or the seller, or the arms instructor who teaches you how to use that gun safely at the range, share in the culpability of a crime committed with that weapon. I don't think so.

You also state that in the case of the poisonous gas that is used to kill one person, that your ethical responsibility is less. Do you mean to imply that your degree of ethical responsibility is dependent on the magnitude of the consequences of that information use? I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like your implying that is more ethically reprehensible to kill a thousand people, than it is to murder one. I certainly agree that murdering 1000 people is more reprehensible than murdering 1, but is there an ethical distinction between the two? I think not.

Ethics is the study of morality, of right and wrong, and its murder is wrong, regardless of the number of people involved.
ethical responsibility in sharing knowledge seems to be directly proportional to how much damage our knowledge can cause, ...
IMHO, if we start down the slippery slope of defining ethics in terms of magnitude, then we've begun to traverse a path from which it will be extremely difficult to recover.
... and indirectly proportional to the availability of the knowledge
Considering the amount of information that is available on the Internet today (and its growing everyday), if we try to define ethics and responsibility in inverse terms of information availability, then we might as well throw ethics and personal responsibility out the window.

On the contrary, as information become more available, we need to actually increase our vigilance on how that information is used. We need to become even more disciplined in how we define right and wrong. I, for one, will not relax my ethics just because someone else can providing the instructions of building the bomb, or that the information can be obtained after a few Google searches.

Now there's an interesting question: If someone were to query Google: "How To Build Atomic Bomb", and Google happily returns the URL - where does Google stand?

For those not familiar with deontic logic - it’s the study of principles of reasoning pertaining to obligation, permission, prohibition, moral commitment, and other normative matters. Considering that deontological ethics tries to define our actions and theories, regardless to some extent of the consequences of their performance or non-performance, then it would probably a good thing if all of were a little more versed in this subject.

I don't belive that we can be held responsible if the information that we provide is used inappropriately, provided that we are not aware of how the information is to be used. It all goes back to the term indescriminate. We have to apply judgement in determining what information we will share with whom. I will not answer any query that I suspect has harmful overtones, regardless of how harmful. Under no circumstances, will I violate my own ethics because the answer is easy or readily available. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[svanels]

I didn't see a request for an atomic bomb, but lots of users are looking for administrators passwords for NT.

What is your advice on that?

Also I 've never seen a thread on "how to make my own virus".

Did you noticed that now every descent network card vendor ships a remote administration tool, 3 years ago people would acuse you of being a hacker if you dared to use it.
There are freewares and recently I bought a book explaining how to build your own Remote Administration Aplication, inclusive how to crash a pc. All these people selling, sharing, demonstrating their knowledge are irresponsible? Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[CajunCenturion]

No-one is asking how to build an atomic bomb - the hypothectical is that if someone did, and you knew the answer, would you provide the answer?

And no, there is not a thread on how to build a virus - but I have seen the following question: Does anyone know how to delete a certain file, if the location is not know, delete it even if its in use, and not reboot the computer?
How would you interpret that question?

All these people selling, sharing, demonstrating their knowledge are irresponsible? - What do you think? By publishing a metholdolgy for remotely crashing a computer, wouth the author, should the author be responsible for damages as a result of that crash? I mentioned early that one of the criteria is the knowlege of how the information is to be used. What are the postive uses of knowing how to remotely crash a computer? On the other hand, what are the possible negative uses of such information?

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sleipnir214]

CC, I don't know deontic logic, either. I never got any further in logic and a fam ride with modal operators.

But I still disagree that the magnitude of an act makes no difference as to ethicality of the act. If that were true, then international law would not have the crimes of genocide or crimes against humanity separate from murder. Nor would international treaties treat weapons of mass destruction differently from handguns. I think you have heard the datum presented that handguns kill more people each year than WMDs, and have killed more over the centuries.

And if you are correct, then I have no ethical responsibility to guard my information about building atomic weapons more carefully than I do my information about an undetectible poison that will kill only an individual.

(And by the way, for those that have not caught on that this discussion is completely hypothetical, my knowledge of both is miniscule. And if that's not the truth, it's my story and I'm sticking to it.[evilgrin])


Svanels, the problem is that no one is going to post the question, "How can I create a virus?" Because anyone with any ethical sense would not answer the question. It is the posts like the one CC quotes that trouble me -- I suspect, too, that the post was a request for something nasty, if not a virus, then something intended to damage another's computer.

I have also seen a number of posts asking for code which solved problems that are obvious classroom assignments: "I need to take 10 inputs from standard in, and put them in a linked list. How do I do that?" Someone happily provided the code, no explanations or even comments in the code. If that questioner took that code and turned it in to his teacher, it was plagiarism. And self-defeating in the long run.

Are we here to just provide answers? Or do we have an ethical obligation to teach, too? I began this thread asking that very question.

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[butchrecon]

We are here to provide assistance use their best judgment when doing so. Everyone is different there. The moral obligations are up to the person who provides the assistance and the person needing the assistance. If one or the other is of low moral character, then nothing is learned. There are many who do not want to learn, just be handed the answer and go on to the next project or homework assignment. However if both are of higher moral standard and want to really learn, that is where we provide the best assistance. I agree with sleipnir214 that magnitude of the act does makes a difference in the ethicality of it. (I think I am reading your posts correctly). Though I would not help someone create a virus, or cheat on homework, I would still rather do that then help them build a bomb. It all boils down to the ethic of the one making the post and the one responding to it. James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Ethics is a system of values, that which deals with right and wrong, moral duty and obligation. It it the principles which guide out behavior. It makes no reference to the magniture of the behavior.

Ethics is separate from culpability - that being an assessment of blame, which IMHO opinion, does come in degrees.

I think, before we go too further, that we need to agree on what we mean by ethics, and by what we mean my culpability.

sleipnir214 and butchrecon, are we talking about ethics, or culpability?

And Yes, you have an equal moral and ethical requirement to protect that information which is harmful to one, as that information which is harmful to many. If you hold yourself to the same high standard for both, then you won't find yourself rationalizing your behavior based on some subjective judgement of severity. We have to make lots of difficult subjective judgements every day, why make this more difficult by applying a slipper slope to ethics.

I do not belive that the international community distinguishes between genocide and murder on ethical grounds, nor are ethics the rationale behind the difference between MWD and traditional small arms. There are substantial differences here, including the magnitude, heinousness, culpability, the horrific differences between these extremes.

but different with respect to ethics? I don't think so -
Wrong is Wrong !


Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[edfair]

Actually, there was a request at one time on TT for help in writing a virus. Needless to say it got flagged.
If you think it is homework there is no problem in adding your comment in the thread that it sounds like homework and that you might help debug their code that isn't working if they will post it.
I have no problem posting code without comments if the question is asked in such a way that it sounds like the person has enough sense to use it to resolve the problem.
I have no problem posting comments without code if it might start somebody looking at a problem differently.
But I generally wouldn't give code and comments as that would be parts of a homework assignment.
I find it easier to make the moral judgement based on one case and interprolate it to the larger picture. Ed Fair
unixstuff@juno.com
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[sleipnir214]

CC, you are assuming facts never brought into evidence. I did not say that genocide is ethically worse from murder because it carries a greater penalty. I merely said that international law makes a distinction between the two. I have no idea the penalties are, or if there is a difference between them.

In fact, you are the one who brought the idea of penalty in to this in the first place. All the online thesaurii I've consulted give "culpable" as a synonym for "reprehensible".

You seem to be arguing that ethics are absolute and context-free. This cannot be so. If it were, how would I choose which of two conflicting ethical responsibilities to fulfill? How could a firefighter ever to decide which victim to carry out of the inferno, leaving the other to certain death?


True, we must not be sidetracked by the apparent heinousness of an act. We all look in awe at the act of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, but forget the firebombing of Dresden, even though Dresden's population was at least twice that of Hiroshima at the times of their respective bombings.

But that slippery slope is exactly where a cogent examination of ethics is at its most useful. If you had to give up your choice of the bomb plan or the poison formula, with a gun at your child's head, do you mean to tell me that you could only decide which secret to reveal by flipping a coin? ______________________________________________________________________
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[butchrecon]

At the risk of sounding even more ignorant than I am, What is culpability? I am unfamiliar with that word. (No dictionary here at work) James Collins
Field Service Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Culpability is the assement of blame. You much did your actions contribute to the damage. Or how much of the blame are you responsible for. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein