Grammar and Punctuation Civil Disobedience 2

[KornGeek]

(Forgive my rambling. It's getting late, but I thought this might be fun.)

Are there any grammar or punctuation (or even spelling) rules that you know, but choose not to follow?

For me, a big one is the rule regarding punctuation and quotation marks at the end of a sentence. The rule states that the punctuation should go inside the quotation marks, but I usually put it outside.

The way I decide where the punctuation goes has to do with whether it was part of what I was quoting or not. For instance I will punctuate as follows:

She told me to "Use punctuation the right way."
and
She told me to use punctuation "the right way".

In the first instance, I'm quoting a sentence, so I include the punctuation. In the second instance, I'm quoting a fragment, so I put the punctuation outside the quotes.

Even though I've always been taught that the punctuation should go inside the quotes, I feel that it makes your intentions more clear doing it my way.

What rules do you deliberately disobey?

 

[CajunCenturion]

Ok, the ice is starting to get thin.

--------------
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[Welshbird]

I am. MNuff said.

[I'll get my coat]

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[Dagon]

I thought when I saw the title of this piece that the author was about to advocate civil disobedience in response to examples of bad punctuation. For example, if you see a sign such as "Joes Bakery", you creep out in the middle of the night with a ladder and paint in an apostrophe between the "e" and the "s".

 

[MeGustaXL]

What should I do on the market when I see the greengrocer's sign that reads:

Tomatoe's 50p/lb

Or any number of similar hanging offences?


Chris

If yer see a Rook on 'is own, im's a Crow. If yer sees a flock o' Crows, them's Rooks - My Uncle Cecil

 

[SantaMufasa]

That's wot masking tape (and white-out) are for.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[jrbarnett]

One of my language faux pas is forgetting that the word "Data" is the plural. So it should refer to "The data are" rather than "The data is."

For those of you intrigued, the singular is "Datum."

John

 

[MeGustaXL]

In my line of work, there is a saying:

There are two types of analyst: those who say "Data is the problem", and those who say "Data are the problem"

I say I don't care, as long as I get some data!

Chris

If yer see a Rook on 'is own, im's a Crow. If yer sees a flock o' Crows, them's Rooks - My Uncle Cecil

 

[Dagon]

I'm puzzled how a word like data can possibly have a singular. It seems to me it's a word like "concrete" or "plastic" which refers to a mass which has no pre-defined constituent element. You can't talk about "a plastic" or "a concrete", because no-one would no what you meant. Is that a pound of concrete or a ton of concrete ? In the same way, what is a datum ? Is it a byte, a mega-byte or a user's name and address ? That's why I think "data" in that sense can validly be used in the single. After all, no-one would say "the plastic are being delivered this afternoon".

 

[Dagon]

Should read my messages more carefully. It should be "because no-one would know what you meant

 

[CajunCenturion]

The last several posts have brought into play two additional concepts - the collective noun and the countable noun.

The reason you can't say 'a plastic', or 'a concrete' is because plastic and concrete are not countable nouns. The indefinite article 'a' can only be used with countable nouns.

Collective nouns are nouns that refer to groups. If you are referring to the group as a single entitiy, then it would take a singular verb. "The data is normalized". If, however, you are referring to the specific items within the group as individuals, then you would use a plural verb. "The data are random letters". So data, as a collective noun, could be either singular or plural, depending on context.

Finally, if Data is a proper noun, and Data is the problem, then I suggest you discuss the issue with Captain Picard.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[MeGustaXL]

In English, the word datum is still used in the general sense of "something given", and more specifically in cartography, geography, geology, and drafting to mean a reference point, reference line, or reference surface. The Latin plural data is also used as a plural in English, but it is also commonly treated as a mass noun and used in the singular. For example, "This is all the data from the experiment". This usage is inconsistent with the rules of Latin grammar, which would suggest, "These are the data ..."; each measurement or result is a single datum. However, given the variety and irregularity of English plural constructions, there seem to be no grounds for arguing that data is incorrect as a singular mass noun in English.

Chris

If yer see a Rook on 'is own, im's a Crow. If yer sees a flock o' Crows, them's Rooks - My Uncle Cecil

 

[KornGeek]

I thought when I saw the title of this piece that the author was about to advocate civil disobedience in response to examples of bad punctuation. For example, if you see a sign such as "Joes Bakery", you creep out in the middle of the night with a ladder and paint in an apostrophe between the "e" and the "s".

This wasn't what I meant, but now that you brought it up...

 

[SantaMufasa]

I'm puzzled how a word like data can possibly have a singular

Strange but true.


It has always been fascinating to Yanks that Britons are so fond of the converse of the situation you mention: in the US, a singular noun (despite its representing a plenary body) retains a singular verb, while in the UK, if the singular noun represents a plenary body, the singular noun uses plural-verb cardinality:

US: The Department of Defense is sponsoring an airshow.
UK: The Ministry of Defence are sponsoring an airshow.

Many people have a problem with believing that alumni is plural of an alumnus; they see no problem with saying, "I am an alumni of University of Birmingham."

The word data represents a plural of a single datum. If one element of information needed fixing, it would be incorrect to say, "I must fix a data." It is correct to say, "I must fix a datum."

The fact that it seems puzzling derives from popular misuse.

Popular misuse has also made the following sound correct, but remain grammatically incorrect:

"She speaks English better than me."
"Who wants to go to the shop?"..."Me."
...and many other mis-uses.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[Stella740pl]

SantaMufasa,

The word data represents a plural of a single datum. If one element of information needed fixing, it would be incorrect to say, "I must fix a data." It is correct to say, "I must fix a datum."

What is one element of the data, for that matter?

If I need to fix one table of my database, can I call it 'datum'? I guess not yet.

Or if only one record for the said table needs fixing, is it an element of the data?

Or is one field of one record of one table of that database a datum already?

Or one symbol of the said field of the record of the table of the database?

Or should I go smaller than that?

Well, I don't know. (Can you clarify that for me, please? )And for the reason that I don't know, I would never say "I must fix a datum." I would say "I must fix data." - without any article and without specifying exactly how much data I must fix. As much as necessary, that's it.

 

[KornGeek]

I would say "I must fix data."

Please, just remember the significant difference between "I must fix data." and "I must fix Data."

 

[Stella740pl]

"I must fix Data."

Who is that? I don't know him/her/it.
No, I work with data, and can fix data - or programs dealing with it.
I can also fix clothes, toys, some household appliances, and some other stuff.
But I don't fix Data, whoever/whatever that might be. ;-)

 

[KornGeek]

I know many who will take offense to this simplistic answer, but Data is a humanoid robot character from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Stella740pl]

Then I definitely don't fix Data.
I am happy to say I am not hooked on Star Anything (so those who might take offense - please don't).

 

[Trevoke]

Here's how I understand it..
Proper grammar requires it one way. People who code like to nest their data and so, the concept of a period inside quotations that ends something outside of the quotations is like a memory leak.

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"

 

[SantaMufasa]

KornGeek, Live long and prosper!

Stella, rather than address each element of your data abstractions, above, I hope you will accept these examples in explanation:

984; 3,253,944; Sunday; and 8,390, as a collection, are data.

984 is a datum.

If the value, "984", should be "983", instead, and I know that I must correct just that one value, then I could correctly say, "I must correct a single data value," or I could correctly say, "I must correct a single datum." In the former example, "data" is an adjective that modifies the noun, "value"; in the latter, "datum" is a noun. It would be incorrect to say, "I must correct a single data."

I certainly acknowledge that, as a culture, we have typically abandoned the term "datum" in favour of what has become the generic term, "data". That does not make misuse of the term "data" suddenly become correct...it just makes it popularly accepted.

Remember, if 50,000 people say a silly thing, it's still a silly thing.



Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]