Gender bias in IT 5

[Lozbinator]

Hi All,

I just wanted to ask you your opinions about how men and women may be treated differently / have different opportunities / have different expectations / behave differently etc within the IT industry?

Do you think there is any difference? For exampe, Do men find that they are expected to know in depth, technical things more than women? Do women find they are mistaken as administrative assistants, or find it difficult being taken seriously?

And if you do feel that being male or female makes a difference with regard to your job, how do you work around any problems you encounter (if problems arise)??

 

[CajunCenturion]

The Gender bias exists in society, and therefore, it exists in all aspects of society including IT. The amount of bias has nothing to do with IT, but is a function of that society.

What are the career limitations to a female programmer in a Muslim country? What are the career limitations to a female programmer in a European or North American country?

Unfortunately, the bias still exists in the European and North American countries, but at least they are more aware of the problem, and are moving in the right direction (albeit slowly), but at least are moving.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jancebk]

I agree with CajunCenturion's statement; gender bias exists in society, therefore it also exists in IT.

I have been in IT since it was called Data Processing. (For you puppies out there, that's what IT was called back in the "olden days".) Although bias exists, in my experience it is much better than it was at the start of my career.

When I started my first programming job in 1978, I was the only female in the firm. This was before EEO and Sexual Harassment cases affected the work environment. I did the same type of work as the guys, we had clients all over the state that we had to visit on a regular basis in order to customize and install software. The guys all were issued company cars to travel around to the clients. When I asked when I'd get my car, I was told that because I had just gotten married, they figured I'd get pregnant soon so they weren't getting me a car to use. Next they told me that I wouldn't get my bonus (although I had acheived all the criterion to qualify for the bonus) because I had a husband and the guys were all supporting families, so they "needed" it more than I did.

Back then when women were "hit on" at work, we were just told to ignore it because there was nothing that could be done about it, it was part of being in the "man's world".

Things have changed, for the better, but I still think there is an inequity in pay scales.

 

[palbano]

CajunCenturion
The Gender bias exists in society, and therefore, it exists in all aspects of society including IT. The amount of bias has nothing to do with IT, but is a function of that society.

You have apparently stolen my point of view. Please return it, i would like to use it occasionally


-pete

 

[KornGeek]

I my experience, women in IT tend to have to work harder to be taken seriously. There seems to be an image that they don't really understand technology as well as "us men (urgh, grunt)".

Just to clarify, I don't share that belief, but I have seen it all too often.

 

[xutopia]

I find that it goes both ways.

I did a contract for a large company who's founder was a woman. Many of the decision makers were women and the company politics regarding sexism and sexual harassement was omnipresent (which is good).

However I have the feeling those same politics made it unfair for men in small ways. For example a woman was more likely to be promoted than a man and newly hired personel was mostly women.

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[CajunCenturion]

palbano - .yteicos taht fo noitcnuf a si tub ,TI htiw od ot gnihton sah saib fo tnuoma ehT .TI gnidulcni yteicos fo stcepsa lla ni stsixe ti ,erofereht dna ,yteicos ni stsixe saib redneG ehT

You may consider it returned.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Lozbinator]

CajunCenturion and jancebk: I think you've both made a good point. I like to think that maybe gender bias isn't predominant in society, but maybe I'm wishful thinking? But then, thats a topic for another forum...

KornGeek: I have seen it all too often too. Do you find that women in particular roles have to work harder, or women in general within the IT sector?

xutopia: That is very interesting, and I was wondering if that sort of thing happened as well. Thanks for the interesting post. Do you think it is unfair to men in small ways, or just plain unfair in this kind of environment?

 

[xutopia]

Lozbinator,

I'll admit unfair in small ways. I don't have hard stats like salary differences or anything like that.

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[guestgulkan]

I have met very few women technicians/engineers in general in all my time in the IT/electronics field.
I have now 'met' more on Tek-tips in the last 8 months than in the previous 25 years.

I would have thought that it would be one area where being female would not be a problem because IT/electronics/systems engineering relies more on brain power than machismo.

Maybe it's something that don't appeal to women??

 

[sha76]

Guestgulkan - while you're completely right, there's a fair few men out there who don't think we have the brainpower!
It has to be said though, although I've often had to work harder than male colleagues to gain respect, once I've earned it I've ended up respected more then them! Personally I quite enjoy the challenge but admittedly I've not yet come across anything I couldn't handle.

Sharon

 

[wyatt1erp]

Hello all,

Guestgulkan:

"I would have thought that it would be one area where being female would not be a problem because IT/electronics/systems engineering relies more on brain power than machismo."

IMHO there are a several of factors for why this is still a problem. One, up until the last 15 years or so, it was still accepted that females were "not as good" in Math and Science so they were discouraged from pursuing education in those areas. This premise was applied to computers as well.

Two, since males dominated the field, it has been a difficult transition for both sexes to move toward a level playing field. The lower and mid levels of application development and certainly the PC area have seen much more equality of work and pay for both males and females. The top levels are still difficult to break into. They are held by former mainframe programmers turned management and are predominately male. The value judgement of Mainframe+Male=Management is tough to change but it is happening (if only because the "good ole boys" are retiring at last. For some females, it wasn't worth fighting.

The times, they are changing though. I saw an article on the news the other night that indicated that boys were slipping in school behind the girls because sports was held up by society (including their fathers)much, much higher than academics. (This could inspire another thread easily!)

My two cents.

 

[NiteLink]

The funny thing is that women are thought to be cooks at home but the chefs in restaurants are men. Tailors are men. Those things that we thought women are "supposed" to be better at.

In my company, men are more likely to be promoted. The women here are just looked over "due to the quota of the promotions system" here. I really wonder if they (top management are men) look hard at the performance of all the employees here. It's not good to be too feminist or too chauvinist.

The talk now is that they are going to look at the performance to promote and increase pay. If that's really the case, the top management better implement something or else they would lose out to those who do perform well. I wonder, would they pruposely undermine someone's efforts if they want to keep their positions?

 

[alicep]

I've seen gender bias show up in the "other" duties women recieve in the workplace.

For example, I've seen a male IT employee in charge of the phone system never be asked to answer the phones. He issues and sets up the phone equpiment, so he does know how to use the devices. Females at this same company, regardless of job title or qualification (PC Support, Computer trainer, Accounting Clerk, Cashier) are asked to fill in while the receptionist goes to lunch. When they asked me to answer the phone, I told them about the temp job I lost for hanging up on the boss' husband. (A little exaggeration, the job simply ended early but I did accidentally hang up on her husband, 3 times in a row!) I explained to the office manager asking me to cover for the receptionist that I leave my office phone forwarded to voice mail - if it doesn't ring, I don't have to answer it. I tactfully pointed out that I am PC Support and have a different set of job tasks. I have no skills at answering the phone. The office manager passed the word and the powers that be got the hint and never asked me to answer phones again. Slowly, over the last 3 years, I've noticed other women removing themselves from the phone rotation and finally a designated backup person is now in place. One bias down, many more to go! Don't get me started on the copy machine needing paper or the letters I've been asked to type because my "hands are smaller" (no joke).

I decided a while back that I can't bring about a change by leaving. After 5 years, I think the opinion is that I am not competent as a receptionist/secretary, but I am a pretty good Network Manager (got a promotion). I better close and go put staples in the copier!

 

[DonQuichote]

I think the gender bias in IT, as wyatt1erp described is also due to the fact that technical companies are extremely conservative.

I have worked as a draftsman / programmer for many technical construction companies, and things like working part-time or flexible working hours are often just impossible. Almost every woman there had a non-technical administrative job. The only draftswomen (is that the right word?) I encountered worked in the more modern-minded companies.

Now I work for a company that is healthcare-based, and the difference is big. It is no problem to work part-time (some jobs even require this!) and women are found in more technical jobs. But the men still form the majority...

Best regards

 

[guestgulkan]

In spite of all my previous positive comments about women in
IT/technology, I do have one 'negative' comment to make.
Here goes:
Women do NOT work well together! .

This is not sexist remark - it is based on observation.

 

[sha76]

Before you get flamed by any lurking feminists I thought I'd just back you up on that one! Although strangely, I did find at uni it was alot easier working with women if we'd been put in a group together for a project, rather than if we'd been allowed to choose to work with friends.
I've never found it applies if I'm working in a mixed group either.

Sharon

 

[Craig0201]

"Here goes:
Women do NOT work well together! .

This is not sexist remark - it is based on observation."

Hmmm....well, if that's not sexist, I don't know what is....

Craig

 

[sha76]

Personally I don't find it sexist at all, a generalisation maybe, but as I said above it seems to hold true enough for me.

Sharon

 

[manarth]

sexism is about taking action / making decisions based on an individuals gender, rather than the individual.

Making an observation which is particular to a gender, or comparing the genders' abilities, is not sexism.

It is fair to say that men have better motor skills than women. It is fair to say that women are better at empathising than men. It is fair to say that women are better at giving birth than men.

It isn't fair for a company to take these generalisations and use them in the decision making process. E.g. men are more mechanically minded that women, so we'll only employ male mechanics.


Western society today feels that women and men should be completely equal. What society has failed to recognise is the importance of natural born difference. Whilst it is unfair to deny someone an opportunity because they're the wrong gender, it's ridiculous to suggest that in every job or career, there should be an equal number of each gender.

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]