Framesets and frames - your opinions - the pros and cons 1

[Foamcow]

Since this comes up from time to time and normally hijacks someone elses question I thought I would start a thread especially.
Use this thread to give your reasons for recommending or not recommending the use of framesets.
Personal opinion is perfectly valid, but try to back it up with at least some logical reasoning.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

 

[BabyJeffy]

Some irrelevant comments to respond to some irrelevant comments...

I do not take kindly to people barely out of their teens who tell me that I am uninformed.

I'm certainly neither a teen, nor barely out of my teens. Regardless... if you are uninformed about something - then it doesn't matter what age the person... it's the level of ability and knowledge (wrt the issue) that is relevant.

I take exception to people who, knowingly or unknowingly, provide bad advice.

I don't take exception to those that unknowingly offer bad advice... that kind of attitude shows a very closeted view of people that I find particularly distateful.

Jeff

[tt]Jeff's Page @ Code Couch

http://www.codecouch.com/jeff/

http://www.codecouch.com/jeff/blog/

[/tt]

What is Javascript? FAQ216-6094

 

[Foamcow]

Does the Blackberry recognise different media type instructions or even CSS at all?
For instance, if I created a stylesheet for media="mobile" would it use that in preference to the "standard" sheet?


RE: PDFs. (going of on a tangent a bit)
I agree that for online use a PDF perhaps isn't great. Although it's possible to easily download a PDF and use it offline.
The reason I don't like using them online is that the PDF viewer tends to be loaded into the browser window, which seems dumb to me. Obviously there are size issues too, but screen based PDFs can be pretty small, it's just you are getting the whole thing at once rather than a page at a time.

Even though PDF is a print technology it's an excellent option for use on screen for presenting manuals. It's single file nature means that it's more easily portable. It's easier to print from (duh), image quality will be better for vector images such as diagrams, text can be rendered in any font you choose, the layout can be properly designed with due attention to typographic considerations.... you get the idea.

Yes you need software to view a PDF, but you need software to view a webpage - a web browser. PDF viewers are free and bundled with just about everything, it's easy and free to obtain a licence to distribute a viewer too and it can be included on any transport medium with the actual manual.

Creating it may also require additional software, but again there are free, open source PDF creation tools available and nowadays many publishing applications can export directly to PDF anyway. Mac OSX, for example, has PDF creation built directly into the OS. I would expect to see something similar with future versions of Windows, and Linux users will probably just write their own ;-)

The final benefit I will mention is that manuals can be created for print and easily repurposed for digital distribution.

RE: Fidelity.
The question is why aren't they framesets before you log in. Someone, somewhere obviously thought that it wasn't the best solution. We agree that frames have their place - do we also agree that the majority of people that come here (for instance) really don't need to be going anywhere near framesets?

RE: Porn sites
I've seen a few using frames, but they were all rubbish.
Hang on, did I implicate myself there?

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

 

[ca8msm]

If you cannot see the futility of resending redundant data in an application such as email, then there is probably nothing that I could say to convince you.

Clive, I think you've fallen foul of your own RCIS...

I said:

Google Mail also has a basic HTML version of it's site (for those users without JavaScript)

which isn't the site that most people will see. It's used as an alternative site for users without javascript as it informs the users that:

JavaScript must be enabled in order for you to use Google Mail in standard view. However, it seems JavaScript is either disabled or not supported by your browser. To use standard view, enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, then try again.

To use Google Mail's basic HTML view, which does not require JavaScript, click here.

So, my point is that the standard google mail (for users with javascript) manages to provide a very quick website that does only refresh certain parts of the page, but they provide an alternative. If they had tried to use frames in the alternative version then they would most likely come across problems when trying to keep the frames in sync - like the problems I described about your site and the ones that that were inferred by:

Trying to keep a navigation scheme in sync requires javascript jiggery pokery.

____________________________________________________________

Need help finding an answer?

Try the Search Facility or read FAQ222-2244 on how to get better results.

 

[chrissie1]

RE: Porn sites
I've seen a few using frames, but they were all rubbish.
Hang on, did I implicate myself there?

Ah, finally a subject I know everything about. But who cares if they ar framed or not it's the contents that's important. ;-)

But let us finish this discussion with these words "There's no such thing as a winable war.". If there are any of you that made millions with a site that has frames then frames it is. Otherwise everybody will keep using the method they like best. And the older you get the more difficult it is to change.

Christiaan Baes
Belgium

"Time for a new sig." - Me

 

[CliveC]

Does the Blackberry recognise different media type instructions or even CSS at all?
For instance, if I created a stylesheet for media="mobile" would it use that in preference to the "standard" sheet?

The version that I have does not. However newer versions may. Try their website

http://www.blackberry.com/

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[CliveC]

Actually this is what you probably want:

http://www.blackberry.com/knowledge...ontent_Developer_Guide?nodeid=765890&vernum=2

Looks like a frameset ;-)

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[Foamcow]

Thanks... and no, that's PDF being shown with the reader being embedded in the browser. The "index" is generated as part of the PDF.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

 

[CliveC]

;-) = joke
However it is clearly designed like a frameset.

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[chrissie1]

I think foamy has lost his sense of humo(u)r.

Christiaan Baes
Belgium

"Time for a new sig." - Me

 

[Foamcow]

However it is clearly designed like a frameset.

Ah yes, but we aren't talking about the visual appearance of frames. I don't necessarily disagree with that. I disagree with the actual use of framesets.
It's possible to achieve the same visual appearance, design and functionality using other methods than a frameset.

The PDF is crawled (by some SE spiders) and indexed as a single document rather than a collection of documents.

Maybe that's the root of my objection to the use of frames. In as much as I don't see the reason to use multiple documents where a single one will do the job.

I did misunderstand what you meant though.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

 

[CliveC]

Frankly I do not see the point of spidering. What it needs and what it has is a good navigation system.

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[CliveC]

See also:

http://forevergeek.com/gadgets/blackberry_7100g.php

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[Foamcow]

Frankly I do not see the point of spidering. What it needs and what it has is a good navigation system.

Well consider that I might be searching for a good reference manual on the Blackberry.
That manual has a whole load of good content, shame to waste it or duplicate it in a site which I wouldn't be able to "take away" with me.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

 

[Sheco]

Does it ever make financial sense to rewrite a frames-based site when keeping the same overall look and feel?

 

[trollacious]

I think it would be interesting to get results of a survey on viewer reponse to framed vs. unframed sites. That would provide food for more than academic discussion on the subject.

Before I started doing web design, I hated visiting sites with frames (still do) because any frames at the top or bottom of the page won't scroll out of the way so I can see the page content more clearly.

Side frames are often not designed so I can see the entire frame or menu in them, or they take up page space that would better used by the page content itself. One of CliveC's sites listed in his signature has part of his logo graphic cut off in the left frame, and I changed the resolution of my screen to make sure I wasn't missing more below (had to do that a number of times in the past with smaller monitors and screen resolutions). While the number of people using 640 x 480 resolutions with their monitors is diminishing, CliveC's sites (2 of the 3 he lists in his signature) are good examples of why frames need to be designed more carefully than unframed sites so viewers can have access to all the options on the menus.

Lee

 

[CliveC]

Perhaps you will note the irony here. Blackberry docs are in PDFs and yet are set up just like a frameset. The Blackberry does not support PDFs. If the site were written in pure HTML frameset with drill down navigation you would be able to reference stuff from your Crackberry.

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[BabyJeffy]

If anyone has experience in pulling together a simple questionnaire (and wants to bother), maybe the answers to the following questions would be of interest...
[ul][li]Are you familiar with the web term "frameset" or "frame"?[/li]
[li]Do you use any web sites regularly that exist in a frameset?[/li]
[li]Do you regularly bookmark web pages that are in a frameset?[/li]
[li]Do you percieve any performance differences when viewing a web site that is in a frameset (versus web sites that do not)?[/li]
[li]Which is preferable - a web site that is in a frameset or one that is presented in a single (continuous) page?[/li][/ul]
The trick is to attempt to provide non-leading questions. Example of a leading question:
[ul][li]Are frameset based web sites slower than normal web sites that you view?[/li][/ul]
And the same question without leading the reader:
[ul][li]Do you percieve any performance differences when viewing a web site that is in a frameset (versus web sites that do not)?[/li][/ul]
With that in mind... how about extending this thread (even further) to incorporate questions about framesets that would be appropriate for users (rather than web developers) to answer. If we can get something even vaguely useful then I can approach some of the testers and users I use (and I'm sure others can do the same).

Just a thought!
Jeff

[tt]Jeff's Page @ Code Couch

http://www.codecouch.com/jeff/

http://www.codecouch.com/jeff/blog/

[/tt]

What is Javascript? FAQ216-6094

 

[CliveC]

Jeff, I think that most non-technical users wouldn't know or care what a frameset was. The sort of questions might simply ask things like.

Where you able to navigate the site easily
Was response time fast or slow
How did you dicover this website, google yahoo ... other

etc.

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com

 

[Sheco]

You might limit the audience with that first question:
Are you familiar with the web term "frameset" or "frame"?

Perhaps a single site with multiple options and just see what people use? Like csszengarden.com

 

[CliveC]

Lee, a lot of things are a trade off when you try to make things look good.

If on the Palliative Care site you click on a course you will see that I kept it plain and simple and will resize for any resolution. Also by leaving the frame border in you will see that it can be dragged to make the left frame wider or narrower.

I'm certainly neither a teen, nor barely out of my teens.

Jeff: Did you consider changing your name to BigBoyJeffy


That's a joke - Friends?

Clive

http://tubularity.com

http://PalliativeCareConsulting.org

http://citywastepaper.com