Framesets and frames - your opinions - the pros and cons 1

ChrisHunt · Jan 24, 2006

I would be interested to know when you discovered [that SEs can index framess] and, if you know, when it ceased be true.

I'm afraid I can't help you - I've known it for a long time, and AFAIK it's been true for a long time. When frames were prevalent in the 90s, SEs had to deal with them. They perhaps didn't always deal with them very well, but that's improved over the years. You're still putting an obstacle in the way of your SEO strategy by using frames though.

you are thinking in terms of website design

Indeed I am, since this is the "Web site designers Forum". Web applications are a whole different kettle of fish, and frames are no doubt sometimes a useful tool for building them. Most web applications would fulfill all 3 of the conditions I mentioned in my previous post, so I've already agreed that frames would be a sensible option to consider.

I also stick to my opinion, though, that web applications (and other cases such as Sheco's wife's page) form a tiny proportion of pages delivered over the www. In the vast majority of cases (and an even bigger majority of Tek Tips questions), we're talking about regular web pages where bookmarking, linking and SEO are (or should be) important. In those cases I would not recommend using frames - if that appears to be a blanket condemnation, so be it.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

ChrisHunt said:
I'm afraid I can't help you - I've known it for a long time, and AFAIK it's been true for a long time. When frames were prevalent in the 90s, SEs had to deal with them.

Then if you have known it for a long time why would you link to an article, as recently as last week, that perpetuates the myth along with many other inaccuracies.

The author said:

Berea St said:
Frames cause problems for search engine robots. While it is possible to provide workarounds that allow search engine robots to crawl a frame based website, those workarounds are still workarounds.

The author, like you, claims to never use frames (sic. framesets). However, he nevertheless feels unconstrained in opining on how bots crawl a frameset. If either of you ever used frameset you would be able to review your logs to find out how bots go about their work. I guess it is just OK to save time by quoting other people who have not tried the experiment either.

As for thinking in terms of website design you said:

ChrisHunt said:
Indeed I am, since this is the "Web site designers Forum".

perhaps you hadn't noticed that I had said:

I would also just say that the subject of framesets does not really belong in the web design forum. Had I started the thread I would have put it in the HTML & CSS forum. HTML at its basic level is just a file type. The file type makes it a good vehicle for delivering offweb (as well as onweb) content because most everyone regarless of platform usually has an HTML capable browser.

Kind regards,

Clive

http://tubularity.com/email.gif

Foamcow · Jan 24, 2006

But it does belong in a web design forum as it is an issue that effects web design does it not?

This being a site for computer professionals and this being a forum for web design(ers), questions posted, answers given and opinions made known are in the context of professional web design.

Regardless of their other applications, the use of frames and framesets is an issue that effects the design of web sites.
If you wish to differentiate between the design and construction of "marketing" websites and that of isolated, private, web applications then that's your business. We are here to discuss frames, framesets and their pros and cons in relation to designing web sites.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

Sheco · Jan 24, 2006

I think it is fair to say that a decent percentage of the work these days comes from upgrades and enhancements to existing web sites.

It is probably also fair to say that most people do not have an unlimmitted budget for these upgrades and enhancements.

Suppose you are bidding on enhancements to an existing frames-based site... Suppose the potential client is relatively happy with the existing layout...

Do you try to convince them to spend several thousand dollars to rewrite the site without frames?

For the sake of consistancy, do you develop the new pages using the same frame-based format?

How do you balance technology optimisation versus development costs?

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

Foamcow
Re: RCIS

Foamcow said:
I've started a thread (thread253-1180038) specifically to discuss the pros and cons of using framesets.

You also set-up some ground rules:

Foamcow said:
Use this thread to give your reasons for recommending or not recommending the use of framesets.
Personal opinion is perfectly valid, but try to back it up with at least some logical reasoning.

We were discussing one issue at a time. When I felt that the thread had been hi-jacked I tried a brief summary using only items that people had conceded to. You then attempted to re-summarize the thread based not on what other people had said but simply using your own opinions.

Never did figure out what IOAS was

Since people seem to use the web design forum and the HTML forum interchangeably, maybe it doesn't matter where the thread is.

However, I was not thinking of some off-the-wall application. I was thinking of an application that many people, other than those who browse with Javascript turned off, use every day... An email application.

This particular one is licensed by many ISPs. Guess what: It is a frameset:

Most any application like Fidelity for instance do not start as a frameset because they want you to log-in. That is also why they do not want to allow deep-linking.

Clive

ca8msm · Jan 24, 2006

If we are talking about email applications as well, Google Mail also has a basic HTML version of it's site (for those users without JavaScript) that degrades very nicely. They seem to have come up with a pretty decent looking site which is very quick but they have elected not to use frames.

____________________________________________________________

Need help finding an answer?

Try the Search Facility or read FAQ222-2244 on how to get better results.

Sheco · Jan 24, 2006

Here is International Organic Accreditation Services

Might also be:
Integrated Office Automation Suite
Invasive Orafice Analysis Suite
Incidental Overdraft Aversion System
Iraqi Oil Acquisition Scheme

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

I am guessing it ends in syndrome.

babyjeffy said:
Clive, modern sites are built to run with or without javascript... they degrade so that non-javascript users can get the same functionality (do some reading on Web Accessability before you reply on this point...

Sorry! didn't mean to ignore your post.
Please see: thread216-1181051

Clive

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

ca8msm
If you cannot see the futility of resending redundant data in an application such as email, then there is probably nothing that I could say to convince you.

Kind regards,

Clive

http://www.codecouch.com/dan/

BillyRayPreachersSon · Jan 24, 2006

Given that the user chose to ask the question in the JavaScript forum would kind of imply they wanted a JavaScript solution, would it not?

CliveC said:
Ok! let's not malign people...

Can you honestly say your response wasn't a tit-for-tat dig at Jeff which did just that?

Dan

[tt]Dan's Page [blue]@[/blue] Code Couch

[/tt]

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

I think that this thread has ceased to become useful.

If anyone wants advice or information about framesets, I would simply suggest that you should listen to people who use them rather than people who don't.

Clive

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

Dan I notice that you did not comment on BabyJeffs dig on 23 Jan 06 10:42. Seemed to me a bit insulting and condescending.

Clive

Sheco · Jan 24, 2006

If anyone wants advice or information about amphetamines, I would simply suggest that you should listen to people who use them rather than people who don't.

Foamcow · Jan 24, 2006

IOAS? No, it's none of those

I resummarised the thread as I felt your summary had missed out a few important points.

And yes, there are opinions in there. In exactly the way you feel that "Framesets can work OK in Lynx-type browsers... ", I don't think they work "ok". They work, but the back/forth navigation that becomes necessary isn't "ok".

Repetitious data in pages may well be cached. If it's an image, for example. So point 2 was also not quite accurate.

I also thought it was worth adding that whilst it is certainly an option to use framesets for making offline content such as manuals, a PDF file would quite probably do the job better.

Regarding bookmarking and deeplinking - I will concede that I was thinking of one of those obscure "marketing" web sites you see now and again.

It's not that I disagree with what you said, but reading it I felt that it only presented half, well 3/4 of the picture. For anyone reading the summary the additional information might be useful.

I'd also say that it is definitely a web design issue rather than a (X)HTML/CSS one. I feel the HTML forum is for questions of a coding perspective rather than the why's and why nots of designing a site.

I promise I'll limit my posts and try not to offer any opinions from now on though Clive.
Sorry.

Now,

Some questions for you:

How or why does using a frameset prevent users from logging in or are you speaking from a usability/design perspective?

In a site where you have to log in to access the "meat", why would preventing deep linking be an issue? It wouldn't be possible to use the link without the login anyway.
I can kind of see the rationale, but I'm interested in your opinion.

Bearing in mind what you have already said I do actually think some of your arguments are good. So I'm going to open my mind and I'd like you to tell me why your sample Symposium site is presented in a frameset. What are the advantages of doing it that way over creating it as a non framed site?

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

Foamcow,

I like you. You are very polite and I enjoyed debating with you in a friendly way and we have been respectful of one another. The thread started out well until it got hi-jacked. I guess what I should learn is to not bother to respond to people who are unfriendly or antagonistic but sometimes it appears that one is conceding a point.

Anyway I will do my best to answer YOUR post.

1. Lynx-type browsers:

I am not sure how many people use lynx browsers but the blackberry is a lynx-type browser and it works exactly as a lynx browser with one important difference - it has a small screen. Maybe the Blackberry is not used much in the UK but in the US it is called a "Crackberry". There was a supreme court decision yesterday affecting the Blackberry. If the lower court judge tries to take away the Blackberry, as seems likely, I predict that there will be riots on the streets. The Blackberry is also used extensively in the third world where cell towers are more ubiquitous than phone or cable lines.

If you read almost any article on programming for the blackberry, inevitably the advice is to not use framesets. When I lived in the UK I remember that there was some debate about car bumper legislation and bumper heights. Over and over people said "well what happens if you try to line up a Rolls Royce bumper with a mini-minor". After this had gone on for some time one TV personality actually decided to try just that. Guess what! the mini and rolls bumpers were exactly the same height.

In the same way since I have a Blackberry, rather than join the no-frameset chorus, I decided to try it. Low and behold framed sites work better. The reason that your site would not work well on a Blackberry is because of the small screen. The first thing anyone would see is a menu. Clicking an item on the menu would simply show the same menu again. It would not help to put your menu at the end of the page because they would then have to page down to get to it. A page could be larger than a transmittable unit.

With a frameset the menu takes you directly to the page desired and because of the nature of the interface, users know to use the back button.

I live next to a cell tower and I can assure you that the last thing that you want to do is to re-transmit redundant data.

2. PDF files

PDF is a printing technology. I think you conceded that it was hard to use on the web. That means that it is hard to use off the web (for anything other than printing). PDFs require additional software to create and to use. PDF files are huge. When I spoke of offline content I guess I really should have said off web content. It seems to me that HTML is a better way to deliver such content. Frameset are a good way to deliver content that requires a table of contents.

3. Questions

How or why does using a frameset prevent users from logging in or are you speaking from a usability/design perspective?

In a site where you have to log in to access the "meat", why would preventing deep linking be an issue? It wouldn't be possible to use the link without the login anyway.I can kind of see the rationale, but I'm interested in your opinion.

Maybe I did not word this well. Framesets can be used for a login page. The point that I was really making was that sites like Fidelity are not framesets until you login. Certainly you would not want the pages inside to be deep-linked and I would imagine that that is taken care of with security and session technology. I was also responding to Chris who couldn't imagine a site that should not be able to be deep-linked.

Bearing in mind what you have already said I do actually think some of your arguments are good. So I'm going to open my mind and I'd like you to tell me why your sample Symposium site is presented in a frameset. What are the advantages of doing it that way over creating it as a non framed site?

Well since I use framesets extensively for offline work I tend to see applications for them where they are not strictly necessary. In the case of people who never use framesets they seem never to consider them even when they are necessary (or useful).

I would also note that I get a lot of static here just for using the word Frameset. I have been an applications programmer for thirty six years. At college in 1969 I worked on the IBM prototype for the Personal PC. I used similar to web technology (CICS-mainframe) before most people on this site were born. I worked for a software vendor who used web technology in its early days to access legacy applications and for re-hosting mainframe to PC applications.

None of this means that I know everything but it certainly does not mean that I know nothing. I do not take kindly to people barely out of their teens who tell me that I am uninformed. I come to this site to become informed on new technologies and I have found many tips helpful and have tried to give back. I take exception to people who, knowingly or unknowingly, provide bad advice.

Clive

Sheco · Jan 24, 2006

Wouldn't it be easier to keep up with a single bloated PDF than with a bunch of smaller files that make up the index/menu and the various content pages?

If it only needs to work on windows you could use that microsoft HTML help compiler to make them into a single file.

CliveC · Jan 24, 2006

Well you could use a file, say Help.htm that has its frames in a sub-directory.

Do you know of anyway that I can take away your star?

Clive