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Frameset scaling problem 2

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jamiebettles

jamiebettles

Technical User
Dec 15, 2005
23
DE
Hi there,

I've posted this message in the GoLive forum already but haven't had any responses so I was hoping somebody here could help me out...
I have a problem with this flash website im doing:


Its a basic 2 frame frameset made in golive, the top frame holds the navigation movie and the bottom holds the other pages which are flash movies of the same size. The problem is; the top frame is fixed but the bottom one floats around when you make the browser window bigger and smaller. I want both frames to be stuck to each other, so that it looks miles better and you won't ever have to scroll on either of the frames.
It is possible to do it easily with a table within a normal html page, but the advantage of a frameset is that wherever the user navigates on the site, the menu bar in the top frame stays the same...ie. the whole page including the menu at the top doesn't re-load every time the site is refreshed or a link is clicked.
Can anybody tell me how to fix the whole frameset in place, in the middle of the browser, like you can with a table? I'm guessing theres a way using the html script for the frameset, but I don't know what the script would be!

thanks a lot to anyone who can suggest a solution,

jamie
 
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Flash-Splash page, Flash for navigation, Flash to display some fairly plain content and frames? I take it you don't want anybody to find you on a search engine.

Oh well, what I think you need to do is change your <frameset> like this:
Code: 
<frameset rows="[red]300,*[/red]" frameborder="no" border="no">
The "300" makes the top frame 300px high, the "*" makes the other frame fill the rest of the screen.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
 
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Thanks, that makes sense. I didn't realise the "*" would make the frame fill the rest of the page.
I have little experience and it's the first web site i've made so I didnt take into consideration the implications of making everything with flash. What tips would you give to make it more "findable" on search engines?
thanks for the advise

jamie
 
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I've never said frames aren't searchable, but they can present problems. Search engines will view every frame as an independent, stand-alone page - and will tend to rank the "pages" containing the content above those containing the navigation. Unless you do something about it people following links from search engines could find themselves on a page without any navigation to get them around the site. There are a number of possible solutions to this problem, varying in complexity and effectiveness.

Another issue to consider is that give two well-optimised "pages", one a true page, one a frameset, engines are likely to rank the true page higher - because it simply has more text (the menu, the site title, etc.) for searches to hit on. Of course it's possible to write high ranking framesets, and it's all-too-possible to write low ranking pages, but it's still an extra hurdle that you're setting yourself.

When you add in the other problems with frames it should make you cautious about using them. You don't see so many framed web sites out there in 2006 as you did in 1996. Maybe there's a reason for that.

Anyway, all the above is academic - because all your content is so well hidden in Flash movies that there's nothing for search engines to index. Actually that may not be entirely true - SEs are getting better at picking the content out of Flash - but you're putting a big obstacle in their way, and will pay for it in poorer rankings.

The answer is simply not to use flash unless you need to. You don't need flash to display simple text and graphics, just plain old (X)HTML will do that. You can also use HTML (probably with a little javascript) to do the fades and transitions that you do in your menu. I'd advise you to get rid of them: You already know what all the content in your site says. It's no longer interesting to you. You'd rather look at pretty graphic effects than read it yet again. But your visitors haven't read it yet, and they must be interested or they wouldn't be there, they don't want to wait for fancy graphic effects before they get to the information they want. A straightforward HTML site will serve their interests better.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
 
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What does google do when it searches a site that uses a frameset? Does it just index the content that you put in the noframes section or does it look at the links to each frame and then carry on from there?


____________________________________________________________

Need help finding an answer?

Try the Search Facility or read FAQ222-2244 on how to get better results.

 
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Both. It will index the main frameset page using whatever <noframes> content you use. It will also unpick the <frameset> element to index the individual pages used within the frames. There's no problem (any more) getting Google to index framed pages - the problem is in reconstructing a suitable frameset around them when someone comes from a SE.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd
 
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Thanks for that Chris.

Unless you do something about it people following links from search engines could find themselves on a page without any navigation to get them around the site. There are a number of possible solutions to this problem, varying in complexity and effectiveness.
Click to expand...
I think that's the key to it really. There are obviously some ways around it but why create this problem in the first place if it's not needed. Frames can obviously be useful in some situations but in most cases they do add problems that you wouldn't have otherwise.


____________________________________________________________

Need help finding an answer?

Try the Search Facility or read FAQ222-2244 on how to get better results.

 
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I have used framesets extensively both on and off the web and I have never been able to validate the opinions made by the likes of the author that Chris mentioned, for anything other than bookmarking.

The article contains opinions not facts and no attempt is made to validate the opinions. In fact most of the opinions in articles like this are plagiarised. Try googling "atomic unit of information", with the quotes, a phrase used in the Brea St article. You will see that it takes you to a 1996 rant about framesets when they were in their infancy.

Most people who bad-mouth framesets claim also not to use them. Seems odd! If I wanted some good information on CSS, for example, I don't think that I would be taking advice from someone who did not use CSS.

Clive
 
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Actually their usage has increased since in or around 1999 when Microsoft built powerpoint around framesets. That added millions more frameset users whether they knew it or not. Also Fidelity and CharlesSchwab along with other small companies like Microsoft: use framesets.

In cases where their use has decreased it seems obvious that the reason is because if you repeat an untruth enough times it comes to seem to be true.

Huge websites with pages and pages of data are simplified by the use of framesets and they can also simplify the use of javascript since javascript in the frameset page is accessible to all pages within the frameset regardless of parentage.

Clive
 
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Microsoft built powerpoint around framesets
Click to expand...

At the risk of prolonging this utterly pointless argument ...again.

Powerpoint is not built around Framesets. Powerpoint uses framesets when outputting it's rather poorly constructed version of HTML. It does so in order to provide navigation through the slides.
However, even if one chooses the option NOT to output the navigation Powerpoint STILL creates a frameset with an empty frame.
Another really great part of Powerpoints HTML output is the dialog that asks the user to select "browser support". The options are -
[ul]
[li]Microsoft Internet Explorer 4 or later (high fidelity) <oooh>[/li]
[li]Microsoft Internet Explorer 3/Netscape 3 or later[/li]
[li]Any web browser (creates bigger files[/li]
[/ul]
Now bear in mind this is Powerpoint 2003 I'm using. That's shameful. Why does it create larger files? I mean, it's not complicated stuff it's doing - especially if it uses frames. Perhaps it's all the javascript it throws in to do simple things a complicated way - which is very Microsoft.

For a quick way to share a presentation then I guess Powerpoint will do the job, but urely anyone that uses Powerpoint to build an actual website can't be taken seriously.

A look at just how badly the "save as web page" is done kind of draws a line under any argument that can be made as to how good framesets are based on the fact Microsoft use them. It's a brave man indeed that holds that particular mess up as an example of good practice.

Lets look at the other examples presented:

Charles Schwab. Hmmm.
Their homepage is a frameset that contains a single frame.
Ummm. Why? Look...
Code: 
<html>
<head>
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<!--WAMCHECK:page:GOOD::END-->
<title>Charles Schwab Home Page</title>
<meta name="keywords" content="">
</head>
<frameset frameborder="yes" framespacing="0" rows="*">
<frame name="body" src="/public/schwab/home/prospect.html" noresize="true" frameborder="no">
</frameset>

</html>

What's that all about?

I looked (a little) into the site and was struck by the complete absence of a frameset.
I also noted the use of embedded Javascript, pointless span tags and browser sniffing.
Another example of the state of the art web design/development?
Maybe they are in a transitional period?
To me it looks like they are trying to work around a legacy CMS.


Fidelity - well if you mean Fidelity.com I see no frameset. But I did like their use of loads of embedded styles and a big dose of embedded Javascript.

Huge websites with pages and pages of data are simplified by the use of framesets
Click to expand...
Sorry, how? I just don't see it.

they can also simplify the use of javascript since javascript in the frameset page is accessible to all pages within the frameset regardless of parentage
Click to expand...

and in what way does a non frameset site complicate the use of javascript? Especially if the javascript is well written and is in an external file - as it should be.

In cases where their use has decreased it seems obvious that the reason is because if you repeat an untruth enough times it comes to seem to be true.
Click to expand...

Why is that obvious? Obvious to you perhaps - but that's because you love framesets and just don't want to hear that perhaps they aren't as great as we thought in 1997.
It's not obvious to me. Perhaps their use decreased because people actually found that they were cumbersome and unnecessary, that there were easier ways to do things.

I've based my opinion of frames on personal experience and considered thoughts. It just so happens that many other people have too. If you like them, stick with them. I'm not going to try and change your mind, but I really don't think that people who are newer to web design should even be going anywhere near them.
Frames were something that were handy 7 years ago, in circumstances they may be handy now. I wouldn't say that for a public facing, modern, business website that they are a suitable option.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK
 
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Foamcow,
This may be harsh but I hope you will take it in good fun. The reason that you cannot see the Schwab or Fidelity framesets is because you are not an investor. Once you get past the login the site is all framesets. Incidentally, I could afford to go to @Media 2006, even though I now live in the US, and I could even buy you a nice meal and pay for your hotel room. :)

Did you see my bookmarkable frameset:

Have a good weekend!
Chill!

Clive
 
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CliveC,
This may be harsh but I hope you will take it in good fun.

Well that's convinced me! We obviously aren't rich enough to know about framesets. Investors and other rich guys (like CliveC) can afford framesets, while us mere mortals have to make do with plain HTML, CSS and Javascript code.

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first.
'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'
Drive a Steam Roller
 
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Yeah, I take most things in good fun.

As it happens I too could afford it. But hey, if the company will pay. The company that competed with another to employ me for my knowledge and skills then, hey, who am I to argue.
:)

Why don't they use frames for the public facing site, that need to be searchable and visible to search engines if they use them for the private bits, that don't need to be indexed by search engines?

The plot thickens.

Foamcow Heavy Industries - Web design and ranting
Buy Languedoc wines in the UK
 
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