CosmoKramer
Programmer
Is this another example of extreme political correctness?
Hoc nomen meum verum non est.
Hoc nomen meum verum non est.
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Extreme political correctness??? 17
- Thread starter CosmoKramer
- Start date
- Status
My opinion is that said offended employee just wanted to feel good about stirring up a hornet's nest.
<sarcasm>
Of course, "hornet's nest" might be construed as offensive to an NBA team from New Orleans.
</sarcasm>
jrbarnett:
Don't forget that "users" has negative connotations, as well. It could imply that they are taking illegal drugs.
I think we all need to lighten up.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for here you have been, and there you will always long to return."
--Leonardo da Vinci
<sarcasm>
Of course, "hornet's nest" might be construed as offensive to an NBA team from New Orleans.
</sarcasm>
jrbarnett:
Don't forget that "users" has negative connotations, as well. It could imply that they are taking illegal drugs.
I think we all need to lighten up.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for here you have been, and there you will always long to return."
--Leonardo da Vinci
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- #22
I had read this story earlier in the day, and I am still shaking my head over it.
This whole thing makes me wonder what would happen if these people would spend their time and energies trying to change something that affects the majority, and not just a few. All of this "political correctness" put on society in the last several years, seems a tad on the rediculous to me.
It seems to me, we are all having to walk on eggshells these days so we don't hurt SOMEONE's feelings. Personally, I think society needs to grow thicker skin and get over most of it.
Just a humble opinion from someone who takes responsibility for himself and doesn't look for excuses in life.
Isn't it 5:00PM yet?
This whole thing makes me wonder what would happen if these people would spend their time and energies trying to change something that affects the majority, and not just a few. All of this "political correctness" put on society in the last several years, seems a tad on the rediculous to me.
It seems to me, we are all having to walk on eggshells these days so we don't hurt SOMEONE's feelings. Personally, I think society needs to grow thicker skin and get over most of it.
Just a humble opinion from someone who takes responsibility for himself and doesn't look for excuses in life.
Isn't it 5:00PM yet?
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- #23
I'm still trying to figure something out.
Who exactly does this offend?
Ok, so they say the problem is due to "cultural diversity". Err, no. The problem is that someone is looking to hard for a way to be offended and has found one.
The terms have nothing to do with culture or any other type of discrimination. They have to do with the relationship between two entities. I thoroughly disagree not only with the fact that someone bothered to write an article about this, but with the fact that someone would bother attempting to make changes to appease an undefined portion of their workforce in the belief that usage of those terms is a sort of discrimination against someones culture, race, gender, whatever.
This is not a case of discrimination. In fact the only way I could see it becoming a matter of discrimination is if the person who was offended had chosen to name a certain group of people they felt were being discriminated against. Of course even at that point it has nothing to do with the labels and would in fact be discrimnation by that person.
I have to stop typing about this, the more I think about it the more absurd it seems and the more annoyed I get at the utter...anyways..
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The never-completed website:
Who exactly does this offend?
Ok, so they say the problem is due to "cultural diversity". Err, no. The problem is that someone is looking to hard for a way to be offended and has found one.
The terms have nothing to do with culture or any other type of discrimination. They have to do with the relationship between two entities. I thoroughly disagree not only with the fact that someone bothered to write an article about this, but with the fact that someone would bother attempting to make changes to appease an undefined portion of their workforce in the belief that usage of those terms is a sort of discrimination against someones culture, race, gender, whatever.
This is not a case of discrimination. In fact the only way I could see it becoming a matter of discrimination is if the person who was offended had chosen to name a certain group of people they felt were being discriminated against. Of course even at that point it has nothing to do with the labels and would in fact be discrimnation by that person.
I have to stop typing about this, the more I think about it the more absurd it seems and the more annoyed I get at the utter...anyways..
-T
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The never-completed website:
dilettante
MIS
Primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. are already in use for the ATA/IDE host adapter ports.
Master and slave are used because the "second" drive on an IDE channel is "slaved to" the master... in the sense that most of the electronics on the slave drive are held in a passive state and both drives are really run by the master drive's controller. Modern IDE drive designs evolved from those of the early "hard card" style of product, mostly driven by Compaq and their partners. Basically the card was shrunk down to where what we think of as the IDE controller is little more than a bus adapter to a "remote" ISA card connected via a ribbon cable. The "smarts" are screwed to the bottom of the drive itself now. A gross simplification that ignores a lot of things such as ATAPI support for optical or tape drives on the string, but most of you guys know all this better than I do.
This terminology is used all over the place in engineering, whether we're talking about electronics, electromechanical servomechanisms, or hydraulics.
I can't imagine any useful purpose in changing this - though I doubt it would hurt either way. I suspect there are bigger fish to fry in the world, or should we ditch our master and slave brake cylinders too?
Master and slave are used because the "second" drive on an IDE channel is "slaved to" the master... in the sense that most of the electronics on the slave drive are held in a passive state and both drives are really run by the master drive's controller. Modern IDE drive designs evolved from those of the early "hard card" style of product, mostly driven by Compaq and their partners. Basically the card was shrunk down to where what we think of as the IDE controller is little more than a bus adapter to a "remote" ISA card connected via a ribbon cable. The "smarts" are screwed to the bottom of the drive itself now. A gross simplification that ignores a lot of things such as ATAPI support for optical or tape drives on the string, but most of you guys know all this better than I do.
This terminology is used all over the place in engineering, whether we're talking about electronics, electromechanical servomechanisms, or hydraulics.
I can't imagine any useful purpose in changing this - though I doubt it would hurt either way. I suspect there are bigger fish to fry in the world, or should we ditch our master and slave brake cylinders too?
dilettante
MIS
BTW:
Any thoughts on male and female connectors while we're on the subject of PC (if not PCs)?
As for jbarnett's "users"... I've been instructed that I have clients and customers. 'Near as I can tell a "customer" is a "client's client" - i.e. who my clients offer services to. This despite that fact that I provide services directly to these "customers" myself, on the behalf of my "clients."
Now if I could figure out what to call my client's client's clients... but they aren't "users!" LOL
Any thoughts on male and female connectors while we're on the subject of PC (if not PCs)?
As for jbarnett's "users"... I've been instructed that I have clients and customers. 'Near as I can tell a "customer" is a "client's client" - i.e. who my clients offer services to. This despite that fact that I provide services directly to these "customers" myself, on the behalf of my "clients."
Now if I could figure out what to call my client's client's clients... but they aren't "users!" LOL
lionelhill
Technical User
The worrying thing is that just because someone complained, that doesn't mean anyone was offended. Some people actually like finding things to complain about (my wife calls it "looking for beetles"
. It makes them feel good.
Some years ago we got a lot of criticism for putting up Christmas decorations in the office because some of the staff in the office followed non-Christian religeons. Huge panic and recriminations about our insensitive, inappropriate behaviour. Fortunately someone had the bright idea of asking the non-christian office population how they felt. They were horrified that anyone had complained, disgusted that anyone would think them capable of such narrow-mindedness, and enjoyed our Christmas decorations as much as we enjoyed the various celebrations they made for their festivals. The complainant wasn't a person of any notable religeous views, and didn't even work in that office.
In the master/slave case maybe someone has got upset, in which case I think it's best to avoid treading on people's toes if you can, even if it's difficult when there are so many toes in the world. But it's always worth checking there is a real flattened toe to worry about.
. It makes them feel good.Some years ago we got a lot of criticism for putting up Christmas decorations in the office because some of the staff in the office followed non-Christian religeons. Huge panic and recriminations about our insensitive, inappropriate behaviour. Fortunately someone had the bright idea of asking the non-christian office population how they felt. They were horrified that anyone had complained, disgusted that anyone would think them capable of such narrow-mindedness, and enjoyed our Christmas decorations as much as we enjoyed the various celebrations they made for their festivals. The complainant wasn't a person of any notable religeous views, and didn't even work in that office.
In the master/slave case maybe someone has got upset, in which case I think it's best to avoid treading on people's toes if you can, even if it's difficult when there are so many toes in the world. But it's always worth checking there is a real flattened toe to worry about.
Yeah right! And what do you do with primary Master/Slave?
Primary Primary, Primary Secondary...![[bigcheeks]](/data/assets/smilies/bigcheeks.gif "[bigcheeks] [bigcheeks]")
Enough joking, this is serious matter since it costs our tax money... Perhaps Main & Assist Drive would be good alternatives or are these terms already reserved too?
To be politically correct: I find, my "notebook" is being discriminated by this term too. it is far more than a mere book to make notes in. Where's this gonna end? Will it ever end? Or will we all be so politically correct one day, that noone understands a single word of what the other said because our language will be filled with Tertiary Primaries, mini-high-power-computing-devices (notebooks) and so on...
MakeItSo
Primary Primary, Primary Secondary...
Enough joking, this is serious matter since it costs our tax money... Perhaps Main & Assist Drive would be good alternatives or are these terms already reserved too?
To be politically correct: I find, my "notebook" is being discriminated by this term too. it is far more than a mere book to make notes in. Where's this gonna end? Will it ever end? Or will we all be so politically correct one day, that noone understands a single word of what the other said because our language will be filled with Tertiary Primaries, mini-high-power-computing-devices (notebooks) and so on...
MakeItSo
Spot on lionelhill,
It was not so long ago there was a documentary regarding the slave trade of long ago. A "respresentative" of some sort raved on demanding some sort of public apoligy for the whole issue.
The documentary also interviewed relatives of slaves and asked their opinion on the matter, not a single person said it was a good idea. Most of the people questioned the sanity of the move based on the fact that todays generation is not yesterdays generation, with the rest not really giving a hoot either way.
I would imagine this case would be no different.
It was not so long ago there was a documentary regarding the slave trade of long ago. A "respresentative" of some sort raved on demanding some sort of public apoligy for the whole issue.
The documentary also interviewed relatives of slaves and asked their opinion on the matter, not a single person said it was a good idea. Most of the people questioned the sanity of the move based on the fact that todays generation is not yesterdays generation, with the rest not really giving a hoot either way.
I would imagine this case would be no different.
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- #29
MasterRacker
Active member
I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time when I read the article. Talk about signs that the end of the world is near...
Personally, I find all forms od PC offensive in the extreme. The belief that changing the word used to describe something really changes the idea behind that something is feeble-minded at best. All it really does is create a bunch of new alternate meanings for words that makes precise communication more difficult all the time.
To "retard" something is to slow it down. When the word was applied to learning disabilites, over time, it became an insult to call someone "retarded". Along come the PC police, and now we have to call people "special" or "special needs". Today, when a kid wants to insult another one, they call them "special". Same intent to insult, same offense taken, just a different word. Nothing has changed except that the word "special" is now less precise.
It's all an outgrowth of the mentality that started in the 70's has us all being victims of something. Taking a little care to use common courtesy is one thing, PC is a load of crap, period.
What's next? Instead of looking for "flame retardant" paint for my house, do I have to buy "specialized flame" paint? (That gives me a nice warm feeling...)
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
Personally, I find all forms od PC offensive in the extreme. The belief that changing the word used to describe something really changes the idea behind that something is feeble-minded at best. All it really does is create a bunch of new alternate meanings for words that makes precise communication more difficult all the time.
To "retard" something is to slow it down. When the word was applied to learning disabilites, over time, it became an insult to call someone "retarded". Along come the PC police, and now we have to call people "special" or "special needs". Today, when a kid wants to insult another one, they call them "special". Same intent to insult, same offense taken, just a different word. Nothing has changed except that the word "special" is now less precise.
It's all an outgrowth of the mentality that started in the 70's has us all being victims of something. Taking a little care to use common courtesy is one thing, PC is a load of crap, period.
What's next? Instead of looking for "flame retardant" paint for my house, do I have to buy "specialized flame" paint? (That gives me a nice warm feeling...)
Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...
benlinkknilneb
Programmer
MasterRacker...
Right on! I hate what's happening to our language. People are just too @$^$@^@ sensitive about stuff like this. Along the lines of your "retard/special" comment... imagine telling your girlfriend/wife "I think you're special"... <whack!> you get a hand right across the face...
<sarcasm>
I think the problem is that there aren't enough real crimes to support all the lawyers... so they come up with these "civil rights" cases where people are "discriminated against" because they used a buzzword like "retarded" or "slave".
</sarcasm>
It all boils down to one of 2 things: (1) Money and (2) Get my face on the news for my 15 minutes of fame.
Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled "F1!"
Right on! I hate what's happening to our language. People are just too @$^$@^@ sensitive about stuff like this. Along the lines of your "retard/special" comment... imagine telling your girlfriend/wife "I think you're special"... <whack!> you get a hand right across the face...
<sarcasm>
I think the problem is that there aren't enough real crimes to support all the lawyers... so they come up with these "civil rights" cases where people are "discriminated against" because they used a buzzword like "retarded" or "slave".
</sarcasm>
It all boils down to one of 2 things: (1) Money and (2) Get my face on the news for my 15 minutes of fame.
Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled "F1!"
guestgulkan
Technical User
Personally I can't see how the worker could sue and expect it to stick.
He might find the terms offensive but they were not directed at him/her or any other person at all.
Oh Dear - was the feelings of the poor videomachine hurt?
Can someone sue on behalf of an inanimate object??
He might find the terms offensive but they were not directed at him/her or any other person at all.
Oh Dear - was the feelings of the poor videomachine hurt?
Can someone sue on behalf of an inanimate object??
No one sued, no one said, oh my god this is horrid and MUST stop... they simply saw language and said, hey this isn't right.
If you were developing the technology right here and now, do you really think master/slave is appropriate terminology? I agree with alot of what is said here about extreme PC being an issue, but some simple sensitivity isn't too much to ask for, and the issue of slavery may be all of 150 years old... and issues of severe racial turmoil is of course gone and done right?
I get the distinct impression that the majority of individuals posting in this thread are coming from the majority, and the privelleged majority at that... what gives you or me or anyone the right to tell someone else that something should or shouldn't offend them? Why should racially charged language stick when it's quite clear this country has a horrible history with race relations, or in this example, why should language describing a detestable part of world history which is not yet completely solved, stick?
And outside of all of that, I fully support any group doing what it wants here... if that county decides that it wants to factor this into its purchasing decisions, I think that's a very valid way of influencing the market place. Let's not forget, no one is suing, no one is being arrested or having fines levied, they're simply losing out on market share. Or to be fair, they're potentially losing out on market share, as the county hasn't taken it that far, they've simply said... hey, lookit us, this is our purchasing power, and we don't like it... we're requesting a change, depending on how that goes, as well as other factors we may or may not put our dollars behind the cause. Is the suggestion here really that this county shouldn't be allowed to set its own criteria on how it spends its budget?
If you were developing the technology right here and now, do you really think master/slave is appropriate terminology? I agree with alot of what is said here about extreme PC being an issue, but some simple sensitivity isn't too much to ask for, and the issue of slavery may be all of 150 years old... and issues of severe racial turmoil is of course gone and done right?
I get the distinct impression that the majority of individuals posting in this thread are coming from the majority, and the privelleged majority at that... what gives you or me or anyone the right to tell someone else that something should or shouldn't offend them? Why should racially charged language stick when it's quite clear this country has a horrible history with race relations, or in this example, why should language describing a detestable part of world history which is not yet completely solved, stick?
And outside of all of that, I fully support any group doing what it wants here... if that county decides that it wants to factor this into its purchasing decisions, I think that's a very valid way of influencing the market place. Let's not forget, no one is suing, no one is being arrested or having fines levied, they're simply losing out on market share. Or to be fair, they're potentially losing out on market share, as the county hasn't taken it that far, they've simply said... hey, lookit us, this is our purchasing power, and we don't like it... we're requesting a change, depending on how that goes, as well as other factors we may or may not put our dollars behind the cause. Is the suggestion here really that this county shouldn't be allowed to set its own criteria on how it spends its budget?
Yes, the county can set its own criteria on how to spend its budget. But don't think for a second that this request doesn't have an effect on potential vendors.
You are right they aren't having fines levied, but it's going to cost them money to change labels on all their current stock, and if they don't change the labels, it's going to cost them money in lost sales. So it is going to cost the vendors money -- it's just not in the form of a fine.
The fact that people in many countries (not just the US -- Brazil brought in more slaves than the United States) once owned slaves and the fact that there are also many countries that still practicing slavery today is part of history and the current condition. Telling vendors to change their vocabulary on parts they have been calling master and slave for decades isn't going to change those facts.
We are talking about inanimate objects here. Now, if some supervisor, in explaining something to an employee about master/slave parts, says "master -- that would be me, slave -- that would be you ..." then yes, there's a problem. But the problem is not because of the label on parts. The problem is with the person saying something stupid like that.
You are right they aren't having fines levied, but it's going to cost them money to change labels on all their current stock, and if they don't change the labels, it's going to cost them money in lost sales. So it is going to cost the vendors money -- it's just not in the form of a fine.
The fact that people in many countries (not just the US -- Brazil brought in more slaves than the United States) once owned slaves and the fact that there are also many countries that still practicing slavery today is part of history and the current condition. Telling vendors to change their vocabulary on parts they have been calling master and slave for decades isn't going to change those facts.
We are talking about inanimate objects here. Now, if some supervisor, in explaining something to an employee about master/slave parts, says "master -- that would be me, slave -- that would be you ..." then yes, there's a problem. But the problem is not because of the label on parts. The problem is with the person saying something stupid like that.
I can certainly understand the need for somewhat civilty and politeness. What I don't understand is if my friend in good humour calls me a chick and I'm not offended by it, why would somebody else be able to file a complaint about it?
I hate people who stick their noses into conversations not intended for their involvement and try to "speak" for me.
I think if I am sincere in my use of the word, it should'nt be offensive. ie special, retarded
I hate people who stick their noses into conversations not intended for their involvement and try to "speak" for me.
I think if I am sincere in my use of the word, it should'nt be offensive. ie special, retarded
bi
In regards to the first half of your post... I agree, in fact, that's my point... it should effect vendors, my question was, do you not agree that any purchasing agent has the right to affect vendors in such a way?
In regards to the second half (counting by paragraph)... I also agree that that would be a much more agregious and actionable problem. That doesn't, in my perception, make the first problem go away. And no, it's not going to change the facts, it's a matter of being sensitive to the history, of admitting a wrong action, and about carrying forth in a meaningful way. It's not equivalent to an apology, it's about everyone looking back together and saying... gee that was horrid. I never owned slaves, I don't have any plans to apologize for having had slaves... that's fine... but it would not because of that logic be fine for me to then turn around and ignore portions of that past because I wasn't involved.
In regards to the first half of your post... I agree, in fact, that's my point... it should effect vendors, my question was, do you not agree that any purchasing agent has the right to affect vendors in such a way?
In regards to the second half (counting by paragraph)... I also agree that that would be a much more agregious and actionable problem. That doesn't, in my perception, make the first problem go away. And no, it's not going to change the facts, it's a matter of being sensitive to the history, of admitting a wrong action, and about carrying forth in a meaningful way. It's not equivalent to an apology, it's about everyone looking back together and saying... gee that was horrid. I never owned slaves, I don't have any plans to apologize for having had slaves... that's fine... but it would not because of that logic be fine for me to then turn around and ignore portions of that past because I wasn't involved.
Onyxpurr
What about more loaded words? check, special, retarded... fine... what if your friend, in the work place calls you a ..., insert words that would get the post pulled.
If you want to have those conversations, fine... but do you think they're appropriate in mixed company, in the workplace, to plaster on the side of your products? If so... then do, and let the marketplace decide, that's all that's happening here.
What about more loaded words? check, special, retarded... fine... what if your friend, in the work place calls you a ..., insert words that would get the post pulled.
If you want to have those conversations, fine... but do you think they're appropriate in mixed company, in the workplace, to plaster on the side of your products? If so... then do, and let the marketplace decide, that's all that's happening here.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
And then skiflyer - what word is not loaded?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Oh, they're all loaded... it's a matter of how loaded, and why, I have no problem calling a co-worker stupid out load in a joking fashion, however, I would never say "what are you retarded"... calling someone a subordinate in a business meeting is fine, calling them underlings may get a chuckle, calling them my slaves would only get a laugh from people I'd rather not associate with. And so on and so on.
As to the and why part, there are certain complaints, specifically regarding the opression of peoples, which in my and many people's opinion are justified complaints. We don't go around making jokes about the holocaust or slavery or lynchings... it's not considered civilized to make references to sexual preference in a demeaning way (though this one still has one heck of a hold in broad culture)... phrases like "you throw like a girl" are slowly being heard less and less, at least coming from positions of authority.
-Rob
As to the and why part, there are certain complaints, specifically regarding the opression of peoples, which in my and many people's opinion are justified complaints. We don't go around making jokes about the holocaust or slavery or lynchings... it's not considered civilized to make references to sexual preference in a demeaning way (though this one still has one heck of a hold in broad culture)... phrases like "you throw like a girl" are slowly being heard less and less, at least coming from positions of authority.
-Rob
CajunCenturion
Programmer
So where do you draw the line?
One of my favorites is the following:
To whom am I referring?
The Potomic River Basin Indigenous Persons?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
One of my favorites is the following:
To whom am I referring?
The Potomic River Basin Indigenous Persons?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Ultimately, the line gets drawn by society... and I make no qualms about it, it's not a straight line, it's not even necessarily a straight line within one persons life. In work, public company, mixed company, close friends, ones own thoughts an individual may behave five different ways... the individual in Oregon may behave differently than the one in Cambodia than the one in France. There are obviouslly clear examples on each side of the fence and one big grey area in the middle.
What's interesting to me, is when one word or phrase is so clearly on one side or the other to different groups.
Your second point, is one which was so succinctly ignored by large parts of this discussion (with the exception of the beginning of the thread)... what happens when being politically correct, or culturally sensitive, or just plain courteous interferes with clear and concise communication?
Personally, to stay remotely on topic here... I don't know that that's an issue the IT world is facing with any of its troublesome terms.... in a broader sense however, I think it's very important, as was actually one of my early statements stating a lack of change on the horizon for this particular master/slave in engineering issue.
-Rob
What's interesting to me, is when one word or phrase is so clearly on one side or the other to different groups.
Your second point, is one which was so succinctly ignored by large parts of this discussion (with the exception of the beginning of the thread)... what happens when being politically correct, or culturally sensitive, or just plain courteous interferes with clear and concise communication?
Personally, to stay remotely on topic here... I don't know that that's an issue the IT world is facing with any of its troublesome terms.... in a broader sense however, I think it's very important, as was actually one of my early statements stating a lack of change on the horizon for this particular master/slave in engineering issue.
-Rob
- Status
